Russell - Why Won't LC/Dylan Ban Nazis

Derail of Wittgenstein sub-thread (although I started it).....

Back on topic, and back to you Russell P. I'd really like to hear justification for inclusion (or lack of exclusion) of these folks in the "family" over at LC.


Intentional bump as it's nearing bedtime in Hong Kong and I know the "action" on CT generally occurs when I'm abed.
 
http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=1506&st=0&#entry10151127

And in case it gets disappeared...here ya go. My first post to the "new" Looser Forum.
(Killtown @ Dec 10 2006, 03:55 PM)
QUOTE (maccy @ Dec 10 2006, 09:28 AM)
Hi,

I'm interested in peoples' response to this post from foolmewunz on the jref forum:

You can read the whole thread here if you want:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70285

They calling me a Nazi or something???

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Poor JREFers. Bitter they got banned from here cause they couldn't behave!
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What "foolmewunz" is insinuating is that the creators and purveyors of "Loose Change" videos (and other associated spin off merchandise) are only interested in promoting their alternative history. Any dissenting opinion that they allow here may end up costing them customers or followers. In short; it's bad for business.

The "Truth Movement" is truly a niche market. LTW, LLC is in a very good position to exploit this market. But like all niche markets there is the problem of oversaturation. Once a mine has played out it becomes a useless hole in the ground. But sometimes a shrewd businessman can turn a liability or limitation into an asset.

We know that the Loose Change phenomenon has pretty much played out due to the static nature of both the websites and anti-websites dedicated to it. LC has a dedicated core of believers which was once dynamic and growing but that initial bubble has collapsed neatly into it's own footprint. After all there are only so many t-shirts even the most deeply committed or disturbed truther can use.

But what's a stalled movement to do? LTW has goods and services! Like any good merchants they need to move product. (This is as true for LTW as it is for any LLC which offers goods or services) Time to branch out. If extremists exist who have an axe to grind against the US government and can find use for our product why not then sell to them? Why not make a "big tent" of the Truth Movement and welcome all who will place dollars in our pockets and support our movement (or at least turn a blind eye to our specific *ahem* "mistakes")?

Hence we have a scenario where overt neo-Nazi, Arab jihadi, or old line Communist sympathizers are welcome as long as they question no portion of the "movement" as they promote their own anti-American conspiracy theories and alternative histories. In return LTW, LLC will turn a blind eye to the origins of the "evidence" presented by these honored guests. After all they bring more traffic to the site and as long as they play nice and honor the Truther movement...why shouldn't we honor theirs as well? After all...there is that inventory to be moved.

This is what "foolmewunz" has observed happening here. Objectively speaking it appears that he (or she) has a point. But "foolmewunz" and those other JREFer critics aren't buying our theories...and they sure aren't buying our t-shirts. Therefore it makes no sense to allow them to pollute this site with their critical thinking that just may end up costing LTW sales.

Hence, the neo-Nazis, Arab jihadis, and Old school commies = friends of the movement. Everyone gets to talk about their favorite thing without having to explain their nutty or offensive ideas. The t-shirts and DVD's start to move again albeit slowly. Everyone is happy except the evil gubmint, teh evil Jooz, and the evil sheeple who insist that "facts" be supported by "evidence".

Don't you dare call Dylan Avery a neo-Nazi or Holocaust Denier!!! He simply has a business to run you know! So what if he has no scruples, morality, or standards important enough to uphold? He's a businessman!!

-z
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"Desperate times mean desperate measures" & "This is the 21st Century, not the 1st"

Right now, Dylan needs every bloody member/devotee he can get his hands on. LC is being eclipsed by new 9/11 CT videos. Websites other than his own are being mentioned on nationwide TV.

9/11 Mysteries

"Excellent. The best of the 9/11 movies." --David Ray Griffin, author of The New Pearl Harbor

"WOW! is my reaction to this movie. Great insight into demolitions and what really happened on 9/11/2001." --Steven E. Jones, physics professor, Brigham Young University

"An outstanding contribution to understanding 9/11. Simply superb." --James H. Fetzer, founder, Scholars for 911 Truth

"A superb work and asset to the patriot community and America itself." --Aaron Russo, producer/director, America: From Freedom to Fascism
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When the general body of CTers pass you by, you're left with the scraps. Expect more racists, New Age loonies, and certifiably crazy people to flood the LC forum. In a way, we need to thank the creators of new 9/11 videos. As the market becomes choked with competing fertilizer, the herd will be culled. Dylan will move from being a featured speaker to the guy at the bottom of the list as an extra if time needs to be filled.

Karl Johannes said:
anti zionism is inherently anti semetic in that it is rooted in the belief that the jews are not a nationality and as such do not deserve to exist as a member of the nations but should continue to be relegated to minority subjects in every country they live in.
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Relegated? I don't see how someone's self-worth is determined by the percentage of his group (racial, ethnic, religious) in the country he is a citizen of. An American Jew is an American. A Scottish Jew is a Scot. A Canadian Jew is a Canadian. They're not Israelis.

This sort of thinking doesn't belong in the 21st Century. Pointing to Israel and saying...:
  • "Look at us Jews. We're tough. We're surviving in the Middle East."
This is rubbish as it would be Israelis surviving in the Middle East. Israel is a country. A Jew's, anyone's really, loyalty is to the country he is a citizen of.

If Israel didn't exist, Jews would still be making a living to support their families. They'd still be practicing their religion(s). They'd still be contributing members of the country they are citizens of.
 
StoneWT said:
Relegated? I don't see how someone's self-worth is determined by the percentage of his group (racial, ethnic, religious) in the country he is a citizen of. An American Jew is an American. A Scottish Jew is a Scot. A Canadian Jew is a Canadian. They're not Israelis.

This sort of thinking doesn't belong in the 21st Century. Pointing to Israel and saying...:
  • "Look at us Jews. We're tough. We're surviving in the Middle East."
This is rubbish as it would be Israelis surviving in the Middle East. Israel is a country. A Jew's, anyone's really, loyalty is to the country he is a citizen of.

If Israel didn't exist, Jews would still be making a living to support their families. They'd still be practicing their religion(s). They'd still be contributing members of the country they are citizens of.
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You have to weigh that up against a couple of things:

1. the right to self-determination, should Poland for example have been content to remain divide between Russia and Germany?

2. In many countries where Jews lived they were a persecuted minority, don't they have the right to live in a country where they are the majority and so will not be persecuted?

Also, now that Israel has been in existence for more than 50 years does it not have the right to continue to exist? Does anti-zionism mean opposition to the state of Israel? If so, what marks it out as a particularly illegitimate state? If you're opposed to the expansion of Israel and the programme of the settlers why not be specific about that and avoid muddying the waters with the term zionism?
 
maccy said:
Well, it hasn't been disappeared but the thread has been moved to the Skeptics section.

Which, to me, is a shame because I'm not that interested in trying to win arguments or make a point over there, I really want to know how they think and how far their beliefs stretch.
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Then study abnormal psychology.

...er,...I guess you already are!

But LC is much more than just mentally challenged victims; there's also the unbridled capitalism of the "entreprenuers". But Dylan is so much more than just that. His role as dearleader to the deranged is pure narcisism. So I guess you can study that too.

-z
 
Karl Johannes said:
anti zionism is inherently anti semetic in that it is rooted in the belief that the jews are not a nationality and as such do not deserve to exist as a member of the nations but should continue to be relegated to minority subjects in every country they live in. whether or not you agree with how Israel conducts itself in its affairs (and i think most thinking people can see a lot of flaws with their approach sometimes) to assert that Israel has no right to exist is to tell the jewish people that they have no right to assert their own rights to a nation. I used to be sympathetic to many of the anti zionist arguements (coupling it with a general anti imperialism) but it really boils down to self determination in its basic wilsonian sense.
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A number of nationalities don't have nation states (self-determination was never universally applied, and I'm betting it never will be - at least while it still means something to 'have' a state). One can argue that a nationality (e.g. the Cornish) shouldn't have a nation state without being prejudiced against that nationality. One can also oppose the existence of nation-states per se without being anti-semitic, and one can oppose states being tied to any particular religion.

Of course, the loosers' anti-zionism is generally much less sophisticated. They tend to want to either abolish Israel and remove the Jews who live there, and/or remove Jews - 'zionists' - from positions of influence anywhere. Clearly, this is anti-semitic.
 
I'm guessing beer hall putsch and a hearty round of " Deutschland, Deautschland uber alles" or "Tomorrow belongs to me!" (don't respond, I know the joke!).
 
Try not to get the LC crew upset.... next thing you know they'll be wanting to invade poland. :D
 
Bump for Russell....

I notice you moderate your Skeptics Corner, and talk about how you're "respectful" over here. Yet, you don't respect the question posed?

Why won't you address the question? We've been polite about it, albeit very direct and forceful.

Rikzilla/Maccy - great work, guys... I'm not sure what Russell was threatening you with baning for, though. Was there something deleted?

No sign of the nice little nazi girl and her charming flag collection, I see?
 
Foolmewunz said:
Rikzilla/Maccy - great work, guys... I'm not sure what Russell was threatening you with baning for, though. Was there something deleted?
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Russell has deleted most of Rikzilla's second post in that thread. Nothing of mine has been deleted.

I've backed down and apologised for being confrontational. I'm not going to complain about other people's reasons for posting on LC but it wasn't my intention to go there and argue. I wanted the posters to explain their ways of thinking to me. I suspect that they'll be suspicious of my every post from now on.
 
Can you nominate someone for a post on another forum?

I hadn't seen this post, Rik, but it's a great one. Sums up the current LC situation perfectly. LTW claims loudly that they're not neo-Nazis or fascists, they're not they're not they're not.. and what do you know, they're not. They're hucksters.
 
karl- many many jews were against zionism before israel was established. were they all anti-semites? they clearly saw how the establishment of israel was being framed as being the fulfillment of bibilical prophecy. many jews responded by saying that the exile from judea was divine ordained...and only divine intervention can undo it.

zionists claimed that jews having their own nation...would end the danger of anti-semitism. how safe exactly is israel surrounded by 200 million arabs seeking to nuke them?
 
maccy said:
Russell has deleted most of Rikzilla's second post in that thread. Nothing of mine has been deleted.

I've backed down and apologised for being confrontational. I'm not going to complain about other people's reasons for posting on LC but it wasn't my intention to go there and argue. I wanted the posters to explain their ways of thinking to me. I suspect that they'll be suspicious of my every post from now on.
Click to expand...

I don't criticize you for "backing down", but I found nothing you wrote more than marginally "confrontational". Arguing in a forum is going to cause a little friction, sometimes, but unlike myself, you weren't openly calling them nazis, really (other than quoting my post, above). Actually, by calling them holocaust deniers and anti-zionists, you're being gentle. I truly and sincerely believe several of these folks are blatant anti-semites and neo-nazis.

Is that why Russell's not responding? Because I didn't ask politely enough? Sorry, I don't buy that nonsense. You either support or don't support free speech. If you censor (and ban the poster) Bermas quotes, yet let twenty year old nazis cut and past entire books of dubious honesty, what does this say about your version of "truth".

And, I don't think in an evidenciary hearing or on a forum open to various stripes, thoughts and opinions, I'd have the least bit of difficulty defending that nazi accusation about a kid who has the nazi flag on her profile, or the anti-semitic tag for someone like (I think his name is...) Sypher, who keeps reminding people that worrying about Bush and Cheny is just a distraction from the real problem, the Zionists. (He chastises them for using "nicknames" like NWO and Illuminati, if I'm not mistaken.)

I believe that Russell and Dylan think the lunatic right wing fringe is their dirty little secret, like the alcoholic uncle who we all pretend "isn't really so bad,... at heart he's a decent person".

Anyhow, Maccy and Rik... I appreciate what you've done. If it just shines a little bit of light on them, it's worth it. There's always that one "good kid" out there thinking of getting involved because he/she is worried about one or another aspect of big government. How many of those might be deterred if they had an idea of who their political bedfellows were going to be?
 
I PM'd Russell, just in case he misses this thread:
chipmunk stew said:
Hello, Russell. I'd like to give you a heads up about something disturbing about the LC forums:
Foolmewunz said:
Russell,

GUILT BY ASSOCIATION

We all know that LC is banning any dissenting voice. Yet you make a comfy sitting room for neo-nazis and holocaust apologists.

Why? By reverse logic, isn't that saying that these ARE NOT dissenting voices, and that LC agrees with them?

Haven't you told us that Dylan's a decent and caring human being and not at all the wild-eyed lunatic some of us perceive him as? Is he a closet (or open) nazi? Or is he so in need of sycophants and cheerleaders that anyone who will agree with him is welcome in the "big tent"?

Thanks to Chipmunk Stew for the catch on this one... Rei Murasame has a cutaway of the nazi flag in her profile!
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2162377#post2162377

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=1317

And no feigning innocence by ignorance, okay? Killtown, IVXX, and Dylan hisself are in that thread. This rabid lunatic posts a five page diatribe, with cites from notorious anti-semites and holocaust deniers/apologists, and your "boyz" just contribute, no one comes out and says, "Rei, dear, you're a frothing at the mouth psychotic and we are banning you because we don't want to be associated with sociopaths...." No, in fact, they cheer her on!

That's the thread in which Killtown says he can't respect anyone who uses the word "nutbar". Killtown????? Say no more.

If you make a safe haven for these people and allow them to spew their vommit at the world, yet deny access/debate to people who YOU have to come over HERE to have a discussion with, can't you see the blatant irony, nay - hypocrisy, staring you in the face.

:spjimlad: :spjimlad: :spjimlad:
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This is the image referred to in Rei Murasame's sig:
nationalism-nationalism.png


This person is being not only tolerated, but encouraged by many of your forum members...including Dylan.
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Foolmewunz said:
I don't criticize you for "backing down", but I found nothing you wrote more than marginally "confrontational". Arguing in a forum is going to cause a little friction, sometimes, but unlike myself, you weren't openly calling them nazis, really (other than quoting my post, above). Actually, by calling them holocaust deniers and anti-zionists, you're being gentle. I truly and sincerely believe several of these folks are blatant anti-semites and neo-nazis.

Is that why Russell's not responding? Because I didn't ask politely enough? Sorry, I don't buy that nonsense. You either support or don't support free speech. If you censor (and ban the poster) Bermas quotes, yet let twenty year old nazis cut and past entire books of dubious honesty, what does this say about your version of "truth".

And, I don't think in an evidenciary hearing or on a forum open to various stripes, thoughts and opinions, I'd have the least bit of difficulty defending that nazi accusation about a kid who has the nazi flag on her profile, or the anti-semitic tag for someone like (I think his name is...) Sypher, who keeps reminding people that worrying about Bush and Cheny is just a distraction from the real problem, the Zionists. (He chastises them for using "nicknames" like NWO and Illuminati, if I'm not mistaken.)

I believe that Russell and Dylan think the lunatic right wing fringe is their dirty little secret, like the alcoholic uncle who we all pretend "isn't really so bad,... at heart he's a decent person".

Anyhow, Maccy and Rik... I appreciate what you've done. If it just shines a little bit of light on them, it's worth it. There's always that one "good kid" out there thinking of getting involved because he/she is worried about one or another aspect of big government. How many of those might be deterred if they had an idea of who their political bedfellows were going to be?
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Thanks for the kind words. Russell PM'd me saying this was my "final warning" before being banned. Actually it was my only warning. He has also been quiet on what my exact offense was.

As some of you may know, this subject (Nazis and Jihadis in teh movement) is what got me banned in the UK. (Well not the whole UK ;) but you know what I mean)

I explained to them that the most vibrant and growing portion of teh movement was coming from neo-Nazis wearing the "beard of troof". Ian didn't like that much and banned me, but I have far more respect for Ian than Russell or Dylan. At least Ian would never have allowed a nazi flag to be used as a sig on his site.

I've been looking for a good way to use up that account I made on LC back in October. You, foolmewunz, have provided the argument worth burning my account over.

As for Maccy? I wish you well and hope that I did not screw up your little psych project. They are interesting subjects for a psychologist...like a cancer is interesting to an oncologist.

-z

Oh and Russell...go eff yourself.
 
Well, the neo-nazi/CTist link has been discussed pretty intesively from almost the git-go (at least around here) and they (the CTs) either dismiss it, or ignore it.
 
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