AP source not who he claimed to be

[Nova Land]

Take as much time as you need...

Thanks! (I know that post wasn't directed specifically at me, but I will assume it applies to me as well.) I am behind on work, and behind on sleep, and I wanted to reply to some other people first (such as NoZed, who seems a bit impatient) so it will be another day before I get to your posts and your questions, but I will respond to them.

 

[rikzilla]

A better way to verify that he is a policeman would be to ask the other officers at the police station where he claims to work whether he is one of them. Of course, government rules prevent these officers from speaking to the press; according to Dean, they are liable to be fired if they talk to AP or other media outlets without being on the approved list.

The Iraqi (and US) government would like to manage the news. They want it to be reported their way, so that stories which put them in a favorable light are printed and any stories which put them in a bad light are suppressed. That calls a lot of what they say here into question.

The MNC-I and MOI accusations against AP and its sources need to be subjected to the same level of skeptical scrutiny as AP does. You seem to be assuming that Dean's statement is true (unless proven false) and that the AP story is false (unless proven true). I prefer to hold both to the same standard.

NL,
You write well and are quite intelligent. That said your last two posts are best described by: “It is a tale … full of sound and fury; signifying nothing.” Nice spin...but it's simply illogical and hence meaningless.

You cannot follow logic and "prefer to hold both to the same standard". AP and AP alone is responsible for backing up its own assertions. They have used this suspected sockpuppet "Jamil Hussein" repeatedly since April of this year...and every one of those stories are now suspect.

AP must produce Capt. Hussein's bona fides. They have made claims based on his evidence...they must produce the evidence that he exists!!

Instead they seem to be stonewalling and hoping the fickle public (who is BTW barely aware of this controversy at all) will become further distracted by Christmas sales, celebrity shenanigans, and the latest video game offering.

I fear they may be right...

-z

 

[NoZed Avenger]

So we have one valid example, out of all those offered in the thread so far. That demonstrates that there is precedent for AP to be misstating things badly enough to be wrong in this matter. But it also demonstrates how rare it is for a media outlet to behave badly enough for that to be the case.

No, all you have demonstrated is that the few people posting on this thread have not offered any other examples which pass your criteria. I don't claim to have done any research and don't plan to spend time researching a matter that seems, at best, tangential. you may conclude that no one has demonstrated malfeasance to you (at least to your satisfaction), but to conclude that the failure of a handful of people on this thread to prove the matter to your satisfaction is actually evidence that the phenomenon os rare or impossible takes a giant, extra, and unwarranted step.

Or to reduce it to a bumper sticker, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Proof that news organizations in the past have or have not lied or been wildly (or perhaps wilfully) mistaken would not show that AP either is or is not correct in this case.

 

[NoZed Avenger]

Having read the messages after the one I just replied to, I will go back to my original conclusion: we are not speaking the same language and have no common frame of reference.

 

[firecoins]

Really take note of the Chris Newton firing at the bottom.

-Eason Jordon has admitted CNN mischaracterized their reporting on Iraq through the 1990's until Saddam was overthrown.
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/critiques/CNNs_Iraqi_Cover-Up.asp

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/04/11/sprj.irq.cnn.plot/index.html

-NBC Dateline got caught faking a news story on GM pickup trucks in 1992.

-Jason Blair filed fake news stories for the New York Times in 2003.

After Blair's resignation scrutiny quickly fell on executive editor Howell Raines, and to a lesser extent managing editor Gerald M. Boyd, as testimony from Times watchers and employees disgruntled with Raines' autocratic management style showed the duo had fast-tracked Blair for promotion, despite warnings from other employees about Blair's erratic behavior and high error rate. One employee, metro editor Jonathan Landman, famously wrote in an e-mail to Raines that the paper "...need[ed] to stop Jayson from writing for the Times. Right now."

- CBS's Memogate in 2004. Dan Rather and Marla Mapes used fake National Guard documents against President Bush

The ABC News election memo (2004)

A leaked memo dated October 8 from ABC News Political Director Mark Halperin to news staff told them to hold President George W. Bush to a higher level of scrutiny than Democratic challenger John Kerry. The memo reads in part, "... the current Bush attacks on Kerry involve distortions and taking things out of context in a way that goes beyond what Kerry has done.
Kerry distorts, takes out of context, and mistakes [sic] all the time, but these are not central to his efforts to win."

- The Boston Globe's Fake "GI Rape" Photographs (2004)

In May of 2004, the Boston Globe published photographs it alleged were of United States soldiers abusing and raping women in Iraq. Shortly thereafter, these photographs were stated to be commercially-produced pornography that were originally published on a web site named "Sex in War". At the time, other news sources claimed to have already exposed the photographs as fake at least a week before the Boston newspaper published them.

-Jack Kelley, USA Today (2004)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kelley

Jack Kelley resigned when a search of his computer found letters to friends asking them to pretend to be sources sought by the paper to verify his stories.
An internal investigation later found that Kelley had been fabricating stories or parts of stories since at least 1991, and that outside sources had been warning USA Today reporters about Kelley's accuracy.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/2004-04-22-report-one_x.htm

- Sky news faked a cruise missle fired froma British ship
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/3324281.stm

- 2003 L.A. Times faked a picture
http://www.sree.net/teaching/lateditors.html

- 2002 Houston Chronicle biased a story for mass tranportation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston_Chronicle#Light_Rail_memorandum_controversy


- 2002 The AP's Chris Newton faked sources
http://www.slate.com/?id=2073304

The Associated Press accused Washington bureau reporter Christopher Newton of journalistic fraud last month and sacked him. The AP alleges that in at least 40 of the many hundred stories Newton wrote for the wire service between Jan. 13, 2000, and Sept. 8, 2002, Newton quoted sources who appear not to exist

I think it is safe to doubt the AP or any mainstream media source when a story is published with little or no evidence.

 

[a_unique_person]

The errors are ones of governance and management. News services around the world are being cut back and wound down. Standards are bound to fall. The Australian show Media Watch comes up with stories every week of incompetence and compromised reporters in this country.

Commercial stations like Channel 9 TV are cutting back on news services to cut costs. The simple, and very sad, fact of the matter is that news doesn't sell now like it used to. People don't care about their world like they used to. They just want to be entertained, not bothered or challenged. "Amusing ourselves to death" was a phrase I once read.

As to AP, it's just a whipping boy for Littlegreenfootballs.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=23575_AP_Renders_Their_Verdict&only

They dropped the mask long ago, but the Associated Press headline and first paragraph for their latest release on the Iraq Study Group report breaks new ground in blatant bias: Panel: Bush’s Iraq policies have failed.

WASHINGTON - President Bush’s war policies have failed in almost every regard, the bipartisan Iraq Study Group concluded Wednesday, and it warned of dwindling chances to change course before crisis turns to chaos.



​

It's not incompetence, according to them, it's a conspiracy.

They must be about the only group who doesn't believe still that Iraq is a disaster. And if it is, it's all the fault of the MSM and their liberal agenda.

​

 

[varwoche]

BTW, I've answered your pointy little questions.

You posted something that was patently goofy as evidence of AP malfeasance. (I assume this was out of sloppiness and not a deliberate attempt to mislead.) Unless it's your desire to adhere to faulty assumptions, it's illogical (and discourteous) to insult someone who corrected your faulty assumption by doing the fact-checking that you failed to do.

But when are you going to pick an answer to this question?

AP of course, as if the question needed to be asked or answered.

The question of his [Hussein's] existence now brings all those stories into question as well.
...
I find it likely that "Capt. Hussein" is a Sunni insurgent sockpuppet

The question of his existence impresses me as conspiracy theory. I think it's solidly within the realm of possibility however that he's a propagandist. However, AP interviewed multiple corroborating witnesses.

But before I forget, here's some (non) evidence that supports the anti-AP position: I can't find the photos (video?) of the burnt/bulleted mosque that AP claims to have taken, and I've spent a lot of time looking. Has anyone seen these photos?

 

[rikzilla]

AP of course, as if the question needed to be asked or answered.

As AP is (of course) responsible for it's assertions and therefore responsible for backing them with evidence...here's another question for you which resides neatly within the "need[n't] be asked or answered"niche:

Has the AP provided any evidence yet which could move our existential Police Captain from the ranks of mythical beings and into the realm of objective reality?

Really...it's been what? Over two weeks now right? Why can't anyone find this guy???

-z

 

[varwoche]

AP has re-reaffirmed the story. This is from Kathleen Carroll, executive editor and senior VP. I quoted the parts that I think are factually signifcant if true (or false for that matter). I suggest reading the entire statement.

We have sent journalists to the neighborhood three different times to talk with people there about what happened. And those residents have repeatedly told us, in some detail, that Shiite militiamen dragged six Sunni worshippers from a mosque, drenched them with kerosene and burned them alive.
...
No one else has said they have actually gone to the neighborhood.
...
We have not ignored the questions about our work raised by the U.S. military and later, by the Iraqi Interior Ministry. Indeed, we published those questions while also sending AP journalists back out to the scene
...
What we found were more witnesses who described the attack in particular detail as well as describing the fear that runs through the neighborhood.
...
he is not on their list of Interior Ministry employees. It’s worth noting that such lists are relatively recent creations
...
Hussein is well known to AP. We first met him, in uniform, in a police station, some two years ago. We have talked with him a number of times since then and he has been a reliable source of accurate information
...
No one – not a single person – raised questions about Hussein’s accuracy or his very existence in all that time.
...
That neighborhood, Hurriyah, is a particularly violent section of Baghdad. Once a Sunni enclave, it now is dominated by gunmen loyal to anti-American Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.Many people there talked to us about the attack, but clammed up when they realized they might be quoted publicly.
...
militias have been accused of operating within the Interior Ministry, which controls the police and has long worked to suppress news of death-squad activity in its ranks. (This is the same ministry that questioned Capt. Hussein’s existence and last week announced plans to take legal action against journalists

 

[varwoche]

Why can't anyone find this guy???

This infers that someone other than AP has attempted to find the guy. You could demonstrate that one of AP's claims (above) is wrong by posting evidence that someone other than AP has so much as attempted to find him. Or on the other hand, you can demonstrate that your question is off base by not posting such evidence.

 

[daredelvis]

This infers that someone other than AP has attempted to find the guy. You could demonstrate that one of AP's claims (above) is wrong by posting evidence that someone other than AP has so much as attempted to find him. Or on the other hand, you can demonstrate that your question is off base by not posting such evidence.

All of the bloggers questioning his existence are too busy sitting at home, in their mother's basement, in their pajamas, fighting with the 101st flying keyboard brigade. Funny thing is, even pro-war, "things arent as bad as the media would have you think in Iraq" congressmen, when they get back from a trip to the green zone, they tend to change their tune. Only a strange few remain here in the states that think the mess in Iraq is all a media fabrication. It is all they have left.

Daredelvis

 

[Mycroft]

All of the bloggers questioning his existence are too busy sitting at home, in their mother's basement, in their pajamas, fighting with the 101st flying keyboard brigade.

Ad hominem. Insulting those that disagree with you doesn't make them more wrong and you more right.

Funny thing is, even pro-war, "things arent as bad as the media would have you think in Iraq" congressmen, when they get back from a trip to the green zone, they tend to change their tune. Only a strange few remain here in the states that think the mess in Iraq is all a media fabrication. It is all they have left.

Irrelevant.

Take away all the political spin, we still have the issue of if Capt. Jamil Hussein and about a dozen other persons are real people or not. It's been weeks now since the issue was raised, and the question still has not be answered.

 

[daredelvis]

Ad hominem. Insulting those that disagree with you doesn't make them more wrong and you more right.



Irrelevant.

Take away all the political spin, we still have the issue of if Capt. Jamil Hussein and about a dozen other persons are real people or not. It's been weeks now since the issue was raised, and the question still has not be answered.

The AP has responded. http://www.ap.org/response/response_112806a.html

I will take the word of the AP over the likes of Michelle Malkin, and little green footballs any day.

Daredelvis

 

[Ziggurat]

The AP has responded. http://www.ap.org/response/response_112806a.html

The Ap said they sent journalists. It did not say who those journalists are. They are most likely Iraqi stringers. Local stringers in the middle east are, to put it mildly, problematic (see: Reuters photos from Lebanon). They defend them by saying, "Several of AP's Iraqi journalists were victimized by Saddam Hussein’s regime and bear scars of his torture or the loss of relatives killed by his goons... Questioning their integrity and work ethic is simply offensive." Left unsaid is the very high probability that several of AP's Iraqi journalists were employees of Saddam Hussein's regime, we as outsiders cannot tell which ones are which, and the AP has not exactly been forthcoming about making their stringer's identites and pasts publicly known. So the fact that the AP finds even questioning their integrity to be offensive only demonstrates their insularity and belief in a privileged position which they have never earned.

I will take the word of the AP over the likes of Michelle Malkin, and little green footballs any day.

Would you take the word of Dan Rather over LGF any day? Or how about Reuters?

 

[firecoins]

The AP has responded. http://www.ap.org/response/response_112806a.html

I will take the word of the AP over the likes of Michelle Malkin, and little green footballs any day.

Daredelvis

I don't trust either. I am not taking either of their words on it. If the AP presents a story they should be responsible for backing it up. Same with Malkin.

 

[Mycroft]

The AP has responded. http://www.ap.org/response/response_112806a.html

I will take the word of the AP over the likes of Michelle Malkin, and little green footballs any day.

Daredelvis

They responded by poo-pooing thier critics. What they have not done is produced Captain Jamil Hussein.

 

[a_unique_person]

Would you take the word of Dan Rather over LGF any day? Or how about Reuters?

He is much more credible than them, any day. He made a mistake, and quit. I don't see Malkin or LGF doing anything about the BS they spew out.

 

[firecoins]

He is much more credible than them, any day. He made a mistake, and quit. I don't see Malkin or LGF doing anything about the BS they spew out.

Dan Rather was retiring before the mistake. The mistake sped things up. Rather still contends he didn't make a mistake despite the documents being proven fake.

Malkin is just a citizen with a blog, not a journalist in the main stream press. No requiremnt to seem objective. He can spew any b.s he wants. Nothing prevents Rather from starting his own blog and doing likewise at this point.

 

[varwoche]

A vague statement from the US military is the primary fact being relied upon by detractors of AP. However the military (as with all militaries) is not a trustworthy data source ("duh" being the appropriate response imo).

Courtesy of Stephen Colbert, this from the Iraq Study Group report, underlines added:

...there is significant underreporting of the violence in Iraq. The standard for recording attacks acts as a filter to keep events out of reports and databases. A murder of an Iraqi is not necessarily counted as an attack. If we cannot determine the source of a sectarian attack, that assault does not make it into the database. A roadside bomb or a rocket or mortar attack that doesn't hurt U.S. personnel doesn't count. For example, on one day in July 2006 there were 93 attacks or significant acts of violence reported. Yet a careful review of the reports for that single day brought to light 1,100 acts of violence. Good policy is difficult to make when information is systematically collected in a way that minimizes its discrepancy with policy goals.

 

[rikzilla]

He is much more credible than them, any day. He made a mistake, and quit. I don't see Malkin or LGF doing anything about the BS they spew out.

Let's wait until Captain Jamil Hussein steps forward before we start calling BS on LGF or Malkin. As of this moment AP still has not produced Capt. Hussein and thus the 15 AP stories he was a quoted source for are now all thrown into serious doubt; not to mention the damage to the credibility and reputation of AP itself.

AP must come clean if they were duped by some conspiracy to make Capt. Hussein appear legit. Similarly AP must stonewall until this blows over and is forgotten if they are actually complicit in promoting what amounts to enemy propaganda in wartime.

I do not wish to set up a false dichotomy and so please supply any middle ground possibilities that I have not covered. Honestly though, absent institutional insanity or criminal laziness I don't see much room for a plausible 3rd option.

So, which way do you suppose AP is going to go based on facts available to date?

-z