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Compressed Matter

Crazycowbob

Bovine Overlord
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
1,384
I've been reviewing some of my physics, and upon thinking about black holes, a question popped into my head.

Maybe some of you more studied folks can add some clearification :)

I know that under the emense gravity of a black hole, atoms are pulled so strongly together that they collapse, forming a ball of neutrons, protons, and electrons with essentually no space between.

What I'm wondering is, pre-big bang, when all the matter of the whole universe was in one spot, was everything compressed even further? Did the bonds between quarks break, and leave a mass of quarks and leptons, or where even those broken into even more basic particles by gravity?

I know under Relativity, the situation, like black holes, is considered a singularity, but I was under the impression that quantum theory more or less made the idea of a singularity obsolete, providing a better understanding of what goes on in such phenomena than general relativity had been able to.


Educationalizing is most definately welcomed over here :-D
 
The classical picture (GR) for a BH or the Big Bang is a singularity. Singularity would mean no quarks or anything we know: it's a finite amount of matter in a point. This probably means that the classical picture is no good there. We don't know the quantum picture.

There are some ideas. For example, current research in quantum cosmology suggests that there wasn't an initial singularity. Rather, if we go backwards in time matter is compressed up to a point and then rebounds. These ideas are still on very shaky ground.
 
Well, now.

First of all, it's worth noting that when atoms are compressed down to where the electrons and protons get smashed together, if there is enough energy, you wind up with a ball of neutrons; the protons and electrons combine, IOW. The environment in which a black hole is theoretically created is the center of a supernova; and we know that slightly smaller supernovae create neutron stars, so this is relatively well understood, because we can see neutron stars and cannot account for our observations in any other reasonable way. So most likely, what exists initially inside the event horizon of a black hole is a ball of neutrons. What happens to anything that falls into it after that, we cannot ever know; once the event horizon has formed, the only way anything can get out is Hawking radiation, which means that all we see is a "gas" of escaping particles. We get no details from this about what's inside of the hole, other than mass, charge, and spin. This last is the relatively famous "no hair" theorem, "a black hole has no hair," a rather amusing statement meaning that the internal characteristics of a black hole are impossible to determine; its only characteristics are those of the whole hole (heh), rather than any constituent of it.

Now, your question is more interesting than that. But you need to understand what the differences are between the interior of a black hole and the Big Bang to understand the answers I'll give, and before I start, I need to be sure that you understand that while this is all theory, the vast bulk of it cannot have been any other way. The biggest difference between a black hole and the Big Bang is that we are outside any black hole we can observe, but we are inside the results of the Big Bang. Therefore we have physical evidence we can examine that can tell us about detailed characteristics of what happened back then, a situation we can never be in with respect to a black hole.

Another important point to understand is that the statements about the visible universe being, for example, the size of a pea, make people think that the WHOLE universe was the size of a pea; this is not the case. We can only see out so far, because looking outward is necessarily looking back in time, because the velocity of light is finite. Thus, in a universe of limited duration, there cannot have been any light before its beginning, and thus any point at a distance further than light could have traveled in the amount of time since the beginning is invisible- it is "beyond our horizon." What is being said is not that the universe was finite and the size of a pea; the universe has always been infinite. What is being said is that the visible universe was the size of a pea. This is an important distinction.

OK, now we have a better idea of what we're talking about. We're talking about an enormous density, all of the matter in the visible universe packed into an incredibly small space. There is an implication to this: there is a law of thermodynamics that says that temperature and pressure are related to one another, and vary directly. In other words, as the pressure increases, so does the temperature. In practical terms, you can observe this when you pump up a bicycle tire. The pump and the tire get hot. And there is another law that relates pressure and density similarly. So the density of the universe is so high that the temperature is enormous, far, far beyond the temperature even at the center of an exploding supernova. At these temperatures and pressures, the very characteristics of protons and neutrons become "smeared."

You are probably aware that protons and neutrons are made of smaller particles called quarks; specifically, of three members each, of two types: up and down. Two ups and a down are a proton; two downs and an up are a neutron. Now, this enormous pressure and temperature mean that there is plenty of kinetic energy in these quarks, so much that they can easily turn into one another with only a very small change in their kinetic energy relative to the total that they have. Not only that, but it turns out there are four more kinds of quarks, strange, charm, top, and bottom, that they can turn into; we don't see these much these days, because they all decay into up and down quarks pretty quickly, but back then, there was so much energy around that they could pretty much freely interconvert into one another. And to top it all off, quarks are held together in threes by the strong force, and the strong force has a characteristic called "asymptotic freedom:" this means that if the quarks have enough energy, they don't have to stay together all the time, but if they don't have enough, then they are confined into the "bags" we call protons and neutrons (and a bunch of other particles, too, all called "hadrons," but because the heavier quarks decay so quickly, none of these lasts very long, and you wind up with protons and neutrons). So the enormous pressure of the universe had the interesting property that instead of pushing things together so much they couldn't do anything, it actually pushed them together so much that they COULD do anything, just about.

Another interesting thing is that when things get hot enough and high enough pressure, the forces we know of get "smashed" into a single force. For example, above a certain temperature, you can't tell the difference between the weak force and the electromagnetic force. We can actually slam particles together hard enough these days that we can reach that realm. At another higher temperature, this "electroweak" force can't be told any more from the strong force, the one that holds the quarks together; and this is pretty well above the temperature where the quarks begin to experience asymptotic freedom. We haven't made any accelerators that can make particles "hot" enough to enter the "strongelectroweak" realm, but we are finishing up one at CERN called the Large Hadron Collider or LHC that should be able to show asymptotic freedom, and we already have some that we believe have just entered this realm, the Tevatron and a few others. The last threshold is the one where the "strongelectroweak" force gets smashed together with gravity. We know really very little about this, primarily because we have not managed to synthesize an effective quantum theory of gravity; until we do, we cannot even imagine really what this would be like.

So take all this interchangeability, of both particles and forces, and this enormous pressure and temperature, and that's what things were like right at the Big Bang.

There is another realm beyond this: it doesn't just keep going down and down, cosmologists believe. What they believe is that there was another state of the universe before the Big Bang, called the "inflationary universe," which is when the dimensions went from being small to being big. But this isn't even really a theory yet; there's too little evidence left over because the Big Bang erased a lot of it. But it's a pretty strong hypothesis, there is some evidence left over, and it explains that evidence pretty well; it's just that it hasn't predicted anything yet, and there are also some interesting competing hypotheses out there. But if we get into that, we're going to be off into a tangent about string theory, and ekpyrotics, and a bunch of other stuff that's pretty speculative still at this time. Basically, the interchangeability, and the pressure and temperature, are what you need to keep in mind.
 
Thanks! That does help clear some things up. I have been reading through "Relativity", and "A Brief History of Time", and am absolutely fascinated with theoretical physics. (Even though it's really a bit more in depth than what my Mechanical Engineering degree is requiring)

Are there any other books on the subject you particularly recommend?

And do forgive me if I ask a lot of questions, answers always seem to bring out more!

Now, I've got to go back and hit my Calc. book, been a while and I need to brush up on the math of all this :D
 
Both excellent sources. I'd suggest a not-very-well-known book by Vincent Icke called "The Force of Symmetry," which will give you a pretty good grounding in some of the more difficult parts of modern particle and field physics without an inordinate amount of math; "Perfect Symmetry" by Heinz Pagels, a really good overview of physics up to the start of the string revolution, with a bunch of really good cosmology including a review of the inflationary universe scenario of the Big Bang theory; and Brian Greene's "The Elegant Universe," for a good overview of string physics. Some physicists you will meet here or around elsewhere are not very complimentary about string physics; IMHO, it is worth learning about anyway, because it at least shows what the consensus view of the majority of physicists is looking at. For some alternatives, I suggest research into Roger Penrose's "Twistors," and into Loop Quantum Gravity, which are two rival theories to string theory. I'd say that'll do to go on with.
 
Yllanes, you live in Madrid? I live in Rota dude.
 
Thus, in a universe of limited duration, there cannot have been any light before its beginning, and thus any point at a distance further than light could have traveled in the amount of time since the beginning is invisible- it is "beyond our horizon." What is being said is not that the universe was finite and the size of a pea; the universe has always been infinite. What is being said is that the visible universe was the size of a pea. This is an important distinction.

Are you considering the multiverse theory, or considering the term universe in another way?

Some physicists you will meet here or around elsewhere are not very complimentary about string physics

I don't know. I look kindly on it. String Theory might be a simple man's nightmare, but I think it provides a fundamental complexity that isn't found in simple particles much. Other theories attempt to split the fundamental forces into differant entities depending on the temperature, which M-Theory tries to relieve. I guess you could say I'm holding my breath on the next generation of Hadon colliders.
 
Are there any other books on the subject you particularly recommend?
I am currently reading "A Short History of Nearly Everything" by Bill Bryson, and I am quite enjoying it. It does, as the title suggests, go into more than just the big bang etc., but it does review those topics. Quite a good read, and enjoyable for someone (like me) who has not taken any science beyond high school.
 
Okay, continuing in this vein, here's a question that should put me in waaay over my head (At least until I get a bit further along in my degree :-D)

As far as the 4 fundamental forces are concerned, are they all instintaneous? Unless I missed some important classes, I know magnetic fields themselves are not made up of photons, but can cause their discharge, meaning photons carry the EM force, but the force itself is felt instantly by anything within it's range, am I correct? The same for gravity (though we have not as of yet found a "carrier" for gravity), an object's gravity is felt instantly by everything within it's influence, otherwise Pluto would orbit a spot far behind the suns motion in the galaxy would it not?

What I'm curious about is how are the forces, particularly Gravity, transmitted? It would seem to me that Gravity could not be transmitted by any particle, as it would have to travel faster than light to function. I just find the ideas behind the forces very enigmatic, and have so far been unable to locate a good explaination of how things exactly work.

Technical explainations are more than welcome, just keep in mind my calculus is not up to speed at the moment. :)
 
As far as the 4 fundamental forces are concerned, are they all instintaneous?

Gravity and the electromagnetic field travel at c, there is no instantaneous action at a distance.

What I'm curious about is how are the forces, particularly Gravity, transmitted? It would seem to me that Gravity could not be transmitted by any particle, as it would have to travel faster than light to function. I just find the ideas behind the forces very enigmatic, and have so far been unable to locate a good explaination of how things exactly work.
Gravity is not described as an interaction in GR. It is the effect of the geometry of spacetime. It is not instantaneous, if you move a planet, its gravitational field will move at c. This is the current picture, the future picture may very well be protagonised by the graviton, a massless particle of spin 2.

The other three forces are mediated by particles. The range of a force is greater the smaller the mass of the carrier. An interaction with infinite range (EM) has massless carriers (photons). The nuclear forces have a very short range because they are carried by massive particles.
 
The same for gravity (though we have not as of yet found a "carrier" for gravity), an object's gravity is felt instantly by everything within it's influence, otherwise Pluto would orbit a spot far behind the suns motion in the galaxy would it not?
In Newtonian theory, gravity is instantaneous. In relativity, it's not; however, it's more complicated than in Newtonian theory---it's not as simple as Pluto just being pulled toward where the sun was a while ago. The net effect of the complications is that Pluto's orbit ends up being practically the same as if Pluto were being pulled toward where the sun is now, as Newtonian theory supposes it is.
 
In Newtonian theory, gravity is instantaneous. In relativity, it's not; however, it's more complicated than in Newtonian theory---it's not as simple as Pluto just being pulled toward where the sun was a while ago. The net effect of the complications is that Pluto's orbit ends up being practically the same as if Pluto were being pulled toward where the sun is now, as Newtonian theory supposes it is.

Are there any particular sources I can look up to get a better understanding of this? I'm very interested in learning more :)
 
Are there any particular sources I can look up to get a better understanding of this? I'm very interested in learning more :)

Really any source on the theory of relativity will explain this concept.

The outcome is "practically" the same, but Relativity's predictions are far more accurate. Infact, the difference was enough to resolve the Vulcan hypothesis.
 
Hee hee, actually, regarding instantaneous forces, there's something really interesting to talk about. I've talked about it here before; I'll give a link in a moment. It turns out that the fact that charged particles obey SR, and that the transmission of the electromagnetic force is not instantaneous but propagates at the speed of light, is responsible for the existence of magnetism; and it further turns out that the reason that the color (strong) force acts the way it does is that the magnetic component is dominant, which implies some rather curious things about how the color force manifests.

Here is the thread. Cecil had a cool experience here, and I was happy to share in it, along with epepke and some others.
 
Another important point to understand is that the statements about the visible universe being, for example, the size of a pea, make people think that the WHOLE universe was the size of a pea; this is not the case. We can only see out so far, because looking outward is necessarily looking back in time, because the velocity of light is finite. Thus, in a universe of limited duration, there cannot have been any light before its beginning, and thus any point at a distance further than light could have traveled in the amount of time since the beginning is invisible- it is "beyond our horizon."

Yes, but if the big bang is right, the universe would have to expand faster than the speed of light if there are parts of it that are invisible for us. Or am I completely off base here?
 
Hee hee, actually, regarding instantaneous forces, there's something really interesting to talk about. I've talked about it here before; I'll give a link in a moment. It turns out that the fact that charged particles obey SR, and that the transmission of the electromagnetic force is not instantaneous but propagates at the speed of light, is responsible for the existence of magnetism; and it further turns out that the reason that the color (strong) force acts the way it does is that the magnetic component is dominant, which implies some rather curious things about how the color force manifests.

Here is the thread. Cecil had a cool experience here, and I was happy to share in it, along with epepke and some others.

That's very interesting. But now that it is pointed out, it makes sense.
 

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