Give a Religious Righter enough rope...

[Marc L]

I just don't see what the heck religion has to do with education in a public school. If a chruch wants to inform local parents about something, they can use email, snail mail, or skywriting. Piggybacking off of an educational resource seems pointless.

Well, if there are several students at the school who might be interested in the event, what's wrong with letting them know? They're not forcing students to attend, they're just letting them know about a community event. Same as if there is a city-sponsored fair, or a concert going on. It's just a means, IMO, of letting people know what's going on.

Now, if the school itself were endorsing the event, then I'd agree with you, it has no place in school. It's not, though.

Marc

 

[scotth]

Well, if there are several students at the school who might be interested in the event, what's wrong with letting them know? They're not forcing students to attend, they're just letting them know about a community event. Same as if there is a city-sponsored fair, or a concert going on. It's just a means, IMO, of letting people know what's going on.

Now, if the school itself were endorsing the event, then I'd agree with you, it has no place in school. It's not, though.

Marc

If I saw this in my child's papers that came from the school, I would certainly read that as an endorsement by the school.

This 'backpack mail' should not be a general advertising medium, but to support the mission of educating children.

If a local art museum gets a mention for a specific exhibit, I would expect that the exhibit has an educational value that is recognized and encouraged by the school. Not because the local art museum needed a plug.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I just don't see what the heck religion has to do with education in a public school. If a chruch wants to inform local parents about something, they can use email, snail mail, or skywriting. Piggybacking off of an educational resource seems pointless.

The same is true of skeptics, girl scouts, and all other things not dirrectly affiliated with the school right?

 

[ponderingturtle]

If I saw this in my child's papers that came from the school, I would certainly read that as an endorsement by the school.

This 'backpack mail' should not be a general advertising medium, but to support the mission of educating children.

If a local art museum gets a mention for a specific exhibit, I would expect that the exhibit has an educational value that is recognized and encouraged by the school. Not because the local art museum needed a plug.

Got it, culture is not something that has any place in education.

 

[scotth]

Got it, culture is not something that has any place in education.

Ummm.... did you read as far as my last sentence?

ETA: or rather my last group of sentences?

 

[bluess]

So far, our backpack mail has included various fundraising solicitations from the PTA, County-endorsed athletic programs (generally requiring payment of some sort to the organizers), school programs, and the Kids After Hours events (KAH is a pre- and post-school childcare program that is held within the school). Getting a flyer from a religious group holding a function would be one more piece of trash to pitch. As long as the group is paying for the copies, I don't have a real issue assuming that any religious group could provide info. Or the athiest group in the area, if there was one.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Ummm.... did you read as far as my last sentence?

ETA: or rather my last group of sentences?

Yes, but it is always hard to properly differentiate religion an culture, and they are often strongly intertwined. For example how are you supposted to understand art with out understanding all the religious references that it has made for so many centuries?

 

[scotth]

Yes, but it is always hard to properly differentiate religion an culture, and they are often strongly intertwined. For example how are you supposted to understand art with out understanding all the religious references that it has made for so many centuries?

Hopefully it can be done in some way other than shipping all the kids over for indoctrination.

 

[drkitten]

Hopefully it can be done in some way other than shipping all the kids over for indoctrination.

Who's "shipping all the kids over for indoctrination"?

The school wasn't doing any proselytizing. The relevant groups that printed the flyers may or may not have been proselytizing -- that's a notoriously difficult term to define objectively. But all the school did was to make parents aware of a particular opportunity.

As far as I can tell, there's no actual harm done even if the schools were to be sending Domnino's pizza flyers home in the backpacks. Giving you a pizza coupon doesn't mean that you have to buy the pizza -- or even that you have to buy it from that shop.

 

[scotth]

Who's "shipping all the kids over for indoctrination"?

The school wasn't doing any proselytizing. The relevant groups that printed the flyers may or may not have been proselytizing -- that's a notoriously difficult term to define objectively. But all the school did was to make parents aware of a particular opportunity.

As far as I can tell, there's no actual harm done even if the schools were to be sending Domnino's pizza flyers home in the backpacks. Giving you a pizza coupon doesn't mean that you have to buy the pizza -- or even that you have to buy it from that shop.

I was specifically answering "For example how are you supposted to understand art with out understanding all the religious references that it has made for so many centuries"

 

[Glen.Nogami]

“If the school allows the Baptist or Methodist church to send home a note to its students about Vacation Bible School, it also has to allow the Unitarian Church to send home a note about its ‘Pagan ritual to celebrate Yule’….This kind of note adds weight to the argument that it is high time for Christians to leave public schools for reasonable alternatives (homeschooling and private Christian schools).”

Hehe. Interesting conclusion he drew, there.

 

[kittykatkarma]

Thanks, but "seperation of church and state" is the standard interpretation of the two clauses of the first amendment relating to religion.

I do agree with you as to the standard interpretation. I should have been more clear on why I made my post.

Because the separation of church and state is implied, rather than explicit there is room for debate by those who would want to; the example being the argument toward making backpack mail possible.

That being said, if Christians want to argue the matter in order that they may distribute fliers via "backpack mail", they have to be prepared for other groups like the Pagans to use the same means for distributing fliers. If they are not prepared for that, they are imposing the same rules on the Pagans that they believe should not be imposed on themselves. The religious righter (Cathy) was clearly not prepared for the can of worms that had been opened.

I do not believe that public school is the appropriate place for religious material to be distributed.

 

[Ossai]

ponderingturtle

Is it inappropriate to distribute religious propaganda on a state owned media? How then do religious broadcasting works as the state licenses out its ownership of the airwaves.

I don't see how this is all that different, clearly if they provided the distribution method and the people wanting it distributed I don't see why it is clearly inappropriate.

Because the FCC, an appointed not elected body, has removed free speech from the air waves. If the message doesn’t support or confirm to a narrowly defined morality then the message/show is deemed inappropriate and is not aired. And for everyone with cable, the FCC is also trying to police it as well.

Now I do not see a real way of preventing churchs from being nonprofit organizations.

Have you ever attended a church around election time? Every one I’ve ever attended should has lost the nonprofit status because they preach politics from the pulpit.


kittykatkarma

I do not believe that public school is the appropriate place for religious material to be distributed.

Agreed.

Ossai

 

[ponderingturtle]

ponderingturtle
Because the FCC, an appointed not elected body, has removed free speech from the air waves. If the message doesn’t support or confirm to a narrowly defined morality then the message/show is deemed inappropriate and is not aired. And for everyone with cable, the FCC is also trying to police it as well.

And this is about promoting religion not censorship. I am sure if you wanted to send out fliers for a local titty bar in backpack mail it would not be acceptable either.

This is just not relevent to anything of substance to the issues being discussed here

Have you ever attended a church around election time? Every one I’ve ever attended should has lost the nonprofit status because they preach politics from the pulpit.

Yes and not that I noticed at the time.

And I did get the weird immage of a quaker meeting trying to have someone preach from the pulpit. I am not sure how you can make silence partisan.

 

[Orangutan]

I guess the attention was too much, Cathy has removed her blog entry.

 

[Ossai]

ponderingturtle

And this is about promoting religion not censorship. I am sure if you wanted to send out fliers for a local titty bar in backpack mail it would not be acceptable either.

Sorry, hot button issue.

Have you ever attended a church around election time? Every one I’ve ever attended should has lost the nonprofit status because they preach politics from the pulpit.

Yes and not that I noticed at the time.

It may be different in your area, but here (SE USA) churches don’t even try to hide that they are preaching about politics and how their congregation should vote. I’ve even seen church flyers/newsletters being handed out as people would leave church with voting issues and how to vote instructions.

Ossai

 

[ponderingturtle]

ponderingturtle
Sorry, hot button issue.

Oh I agree about the FCC trying to expand onto cable is entirely inapropriate but it does not really have anything to do with what is being discussed here, as this is not about vulgar content but promoting religion, to the extent that those can be differentiated

It may be different in your area, but here (SE USA) churches don’t even try to hide that they are preaching about politics and how their congregation should vote. I’ve even seen church flyers/newsletters being handed out as people would leave church with voting issues and how to vote instructions.

Ossai

That must be different than the NE US

 

[ImaginalDisc]

I do agree with you as to the standard interpretation. I should have been more clear on why I made my post.

Because the separation of church and state is implied, rather than explicit there is room for debate by those who would want to; the example being the argument toward making backpack mail possible.

That being said, if Christians want to argue the matter in order that they may distribute fliers via "backpack mail", they have to be prepared for other groups like the Pagans to use the same means for distributing fliers. If they are not prepared for that, they are imposing the same rules on the Pagans that they believe should not be imposed on themselves. The religious righter (Cathy) was clearly not prepared for the can of worms that had been opened.

I do not believe that public school is the appropriate place for religious material to be distributed.

Sorry, I was just being cross. I just think that a school-bulletin distribution system should be used only for directly school related material, which should exclude religionus events. Of course, if anyone tries to inject their religious material into the system, then they shouldn't be surprised when religions they don't like do the same.

 

[Meadmaker]

The interesting thing, to me, about the backpack mail incident is it demonstrates clearly how allowing churches access to the public square, or in this case the public backpack, actually hurts the mainstream churches. No one learned anything they didn't already know about Vacation Bible School as a result of backpack mail, but a lot of people learned something they didn't know about an alternative to Christianity.

I'm not really for or against allowing churches and community organizations to turn kids into junk mail deliverers. However, if you are going to allow people to publicize "community events", that certainly includes church related gatherings, including pagan ones. My only point is that you need not fear that the majority will exploit this for preaching. They will, of course, but everyone already hears that sort of preaching. They ought to fear opening the door just a crack, in such a way that all sorts of folks will flood the place, including people they would prefer just kept to themselves.