Has Anyone Seen A Realistice Explanation For Free Fall Of The Towers?

[JonnyFive]

I'm sure you do not understand the weight of a security clearance and have no proof they belong to any union.

If they were working on a government project in NYC, then they were part of a union. Ever hear of a "project labor agreement"?

In your alternate reality where they needed a security clearance and the government had a role in this, the welders would have to be union.

Of course, it was developed by the Port Authority, so it may already have required union welders. I'm trying to track down the specific details now. I suppose you could always research it and find out that non-union welders were involved, but somehow I think you won't bother.


Now, as far as security clearance goes, I don't think you understand what exactly they are for. A security clearance is strictly for the compartmentalization of information. It isn't some magical NWO super pass. I'm sure the clearance holders here can give you more information than I can, but my dad works for a defense contractor and has held a clearance for many years (making him, and by extension me, part of the NWO conspiracy, I suppose). Basically you get a detailed background check (how detailed depends on the clearance level), and sometimes a polygraph examination. You are authorized in specific areas, based on what your job function is.

The funny thing is, if you were welding "special plastic coating" onto rebar, you probably wouldn't need a security clearance. A clearance details what information you have access too, and it doesn't seem like they would be told any secret information. Any evil NWO government employees here can help me out, but I'm fairly sure they would simply have them sign some papers promising dire criminal penalties if they told anyone about the special coating they were working with. A clearance would only be required if they, for some reason, needed to know it was really C4 used for a super secret plot against the American people.

And a clearance isn't some blood oath to the government, it's simply a sign that you need to know something or other to do your job, and the government thinks you're trustworthy enough to handle it. Penalties are already in place for divulging classified information, but those penalties would mean next to nothing to any decent human who knew of such a horrible plot, even after the fact. Ordinary humans have regularly risked death and worse because they believed in ideals bigger than themselves. You're saying that everyone involved in this somehow shut down their humanity. I find that difficult to believe. Would you remain silent if you knew something like that? Remember, your big plot requires that thousands of people shut their mouths and look away while thousands are killed for some vague reason.

In case you haven't noticed, our government changes composition pretty frequently (by the way, it has happened dozens of times since the towers were built). The reason it stays cohesive is because the authority of the government rests beyond the President and his cronies, with the elected Congress and the Constitution.

I'm sure you'll go on about how it's really an evil conspiracy etc. etc., but it doesn't work like that. Government workers are not robots, and all it takes is one person to say something to start sowing the seeds of a widespread dissent.

Nixon couldn't cover up Watergate, and Clinton couldn't even cover up his extracurricular activities. That speaks volumes about the lack of ability in government to keep big secrets.

But, of course, you may argue that the NWO wanted Nixon and Clinton taken down for some reason that doesn't apply to the WTC thing, but that smacks of special pleading.

I love your "sand and gravel" picture which is clearly not from right after the towers fell, but from after cleanup had been underway for a bit.

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

I see it thicker than that, about 4 feet.

4 feet is a lot less than 17 feet, which is the thickness that you claim the concrete core was.

 

[Z]

Does the Bank of Oklahoma building in downtown Tulsa, a supposedly 1/2 scale version of one tower, allegedly designed by the same designer, have a concrete core?

Just asking.

 

[JonnyFive]

Does the Bank of Oklahoma building in downtown Tulsa, a supposedly 1/2 scale version of one tower, allegedly designed by the same designer, have a concrete core?

Just asking.

Better watch it, it's probably the NWO's next target. Anyone check it for C4-coated rebar?

 

[Belz...]

My objection to using fictional plans (which of 4 core floors plans applied) with no plan showing how the supposed core columns were tied together and braced, has never been addressed.

They're floor plans. Why would you expect them to show bracing ?

My request for images of the ANY of the supposed 47, 1300 foot steel columns from teh demolition showing the columns at some elevations offf thegrouns has NEVER been provided.

They have been provided you mislabeling person, you.

My requests for reasonable explanations of what the materials are comprising these structuresIMAGE which look like concrete and can only be concrete HAVE NEVER BEEN reasonably responded to.

Liar. You said it could also be dust. Are you retracting that statement ?

No images show the supposed core columns inthe core area.

Yes, and the sky isn't blue. I said so.

You and Belz can start the "Galactic Psychic Society" and practice your juvenile text hypnosis of steel core columns and sophistery of misrepresentations of images

My, my. Someone struck a nerve. What exactly have I done to deserve the label "psychic" ?

[...] that are willing to believe that steel core columns look like THIS when they are cut with high explosives.

No one believes that, chris. It's all in your head.

I'd have to say that closes the case on your architect status. No one has ever questioned the fact that 40 feet is the max height for wood forms and many have supported it over the years.

Evidence ?

You cannot be serious.

You might want to show an ACTUAL photo of an ACTUAL shear wall, so we can make the comparison.

The concrete was pumped up through the core from a small batch plant built onsite.

I snicker every time I read you saying this.

I'd like to see what pump they used for that.

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

The first shows what might be interior box columns and an empty core area. The dimensions on center or column dimensions do not look right for the Twin Towers though.

The key word being EMPTY, as in no concrete core. And the building height has progressed well beyond this point and the floors and perimeter columns have been installed, but no concrete core!

The second shows elevator guide rail support steel and diagonally braced crane platforms inside the line of interior box columns and floor beams.

It also shows floors in the core. What's the explanation of why they would install floors before they built the concrete core?

This image explains the last image, the tower on the right and the light coming through.


http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4396&stc=1&d=1165383869

Given the depth the core is in the building, the Sun would have to be about at the horizon to hit the core. Add in the hazy sky conditions, and it's unlikely that there would that there would be much of a reflection off of concrete.

When are we going to get an explanation of how they fit a 400-foot concrete core into a 218-foot building?

 

[Christophera]

If they were working on a government project in NYC, then they were part of a union. Ever hear of a "project labor agreement"?

In your alternate reality where they needed a security clearance and the government had a role in this, the welders would have to be union.

Of course, it was developed by the Port Authority, so it may already have required union welders. I'm trying to track down the specific details now. I suppose you could always research it and find out that non-union welders were involved, but somehow I think you won't bother.


Now, as far as security clearance goes, I don't think you understand what exactly they are for. A security clearance is strictly for the compartmentalization of information. It isn't some magical NWO super pass. I'm sure the clearance holders here can give you more information than I can, but my dad works for a defense contractor and has held a clearance for many years (making him, and by extension me, part of the NWO conspiracy, I suppose). Basically you get a detailed background check (how detailed depends on the clearance level), and sometimes a polygraph examination. You are authorized in specific areas, based on what your job function is.

The funny thing is, if you were welding "special plastic coating" onto rebar, you probably wouldn't need a security clearance.

Special plastic coating was not being welded onto rebar. The rebar was being welded and it had a special plastic coating.

A clearance details what information you have access too, and it doesn't seem like they would be told any secret information.

Your position is grossly contradictory to the topic of "buildings built to demolish."

Any evil NWO government employees here can help me out,

Your cognitive distortion and labeling indicate your attitude clouds you position.

but I'm fairly sure they would simply have them sign some papers promising dire criminal penalties if they told anyone about the special coating they were working with. A clearance would only be required if they, for some reason, needed to know it was really C4 used for a super secret plot against the American people.

I'm better than fairly sure that this is a very well contained detonation of high explosives contained in a uniform mineral material container.

And a clearance isn't some blood oath to the government, it's simply a sign that you need to know something or other to do your job, and the government thinks you're trustworthy enough to handle it. Penalties are already in place for divulging classified information, but those penalties would mean next to nothing to any decent human who knew of such a horrible plot, even after the fact. Ordinary humans have regularly risked death and worse because they believed in ideals bigger than themselves. You're saying that everyone involved in this somehow shut down their humanity. I find that difficult to believe. Would you remain silent if you knew something like that? Remember, your big plot requires that thousands of people shut their mouths and look away while thousands are killed for some vague reason.

In case you haven't noticed, our government changes composition pretty frequently (by the way, it has happened dozens of times since the towers were built). The reason it stays cohesive is because the authority of the government rests beyond the President and his cronies, with the elected Congress and the Constitution.

I'm sure you'll go on about how it's really an evil conspiracy etc. etc., but it doesn't work like that. Government workers are not robots, and all it takes is one person to say something to start sowing the seeds of a widespread dissent.

Nixon couldn't cover up Watergate, and Clinton couldn't even cover up his extracurricular activities. That speaks volumes about the lack of ability in government to keep big secrets.

But, of course, you may argue that the NWO wanted Nixon and Clinton taken down for some reason that doesn't apply to the WTC thing, but that smacks of special pleading.

I love your "sand and gravel" picture which is clearly not from right after the towers fell, but from after cleanup had been underway for a bit.

Your world view is to narrow to deal with this subject comprehensively.

 

[Belz...]

Oh no. I have not said that. I have speculated that the welders were told and that is why a security clearance was required to do the butt weld, so the COULD be safely told.

Oh!

Next time you might actually want to indicate when you're speculating and when you're not. That way we can safely ignore your speculation without having to wait for you to explain yourself.

I believe they were told. and that a security clearance basically makes a person unable to expose the facts.

Interesting assertion.

That was from a 42 mile an hour wind. The towers were expected to see over 100 MPH winds from occasional hurricanes.

The tower faces begin to fly and twist the tower.

You do know WHY the wind caused this effect, right ?

Those diagonal braces are in the crane platform or of the "moment frame. the moment frame was outside the core and in line with the interior box columns.

As usual, you dodge reality by inventing labels. You asked where the cross-bracing war. When shown, you again label the columns so that the fact that they ARE based, and that you didn't see it, is inconsequential. You said that if they WERE core columns, they'd be braced. They are. Be honest for once.

The first shows what might be interior box columns and an empty core area. The dimensions on center or column dimensions do not look right for the Twin Towers though.

HA! "Those may not be the twin towers". Look again.

The second shows elevator guide rail support steel and diagonally braced crane platforms inside the line of interior box columns and floor beams.

Again, why would the elevator rails be built BEFORE the elevator shafts ???

This image explains the last image, the tower on the right and the light coming through.

What mortimer said: how many hallways is that ?

I said "I believe they were told". And it is reasonable. Consider what would happen if one decided to not strip the C4 or shield it.

Exactly. You consider your "reasonable" speculation as evidence. Probably raw.

Clearly, you have no idea what a security clearance entails. I have asked people who have them and they said they couldn't tell me. Very serious stuff.

It only means you have access to stuff that other people don't. Plenty of security breaches have shown that it isn't foolproof, yes ?

 

[Belz...]

No towers with the proportions of the Twin Towers have steel cores.

And you're saying that such towers would be impossible ?

Well, that's it then. Why don't you simply show that it would be, indeed, IMPOSSIBLE to build such a buliding with steel columns, and you've got yourself a case. Obviously, if it's impossible, we'll have no choice but to consider the existence of the concrete core.

I eagerly await your proof.

 

[Belz...]

I have THIS which proved optimally contained high explosives

You never watched the video of the collapse, did you ?

and I also read a magazine inthe 1970 that explained C4 coated rebar being used in sub bases and missle silos as part of could wart self destruct technology.

You read a magazine. Yes. How does that prove that the WTC was wired, now ?

I understand high explosives.

Apparently you don't know that C4 doesn't explode due to heat.

Why would a very high paid welder with a security clearance be in a union? Free speech rights???????? Hah!

Do you have evidence that such welders existed ?

 

[Belz...]

Basically you get a detailed background check (how detailed depends on the clearance level), and sometimes a polygraph examination.

As, so they're in the woo business, too ?

Nixon couldn't cover up Watergate, and Clinton couldn't even cover up his extracurricular activities. That speaks volumes about the lack of ability in government to keep big secrets.

Not to mention our recent debacle in Canada in regards to sponsoring...

 

[JonnyFive]

As, so they're in the woo business, too ?

Yes, sadly. One of the last bastions of the polygraph BS is the federal government. They have various polygraph exams for clearance. Some of them can get pretty intrusive, from what I've heard.

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

I believe they were told. and that a security clearance basically makes a person unable to expose the facts.

Did they cut their tongues out to keep them from talking?

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Mr. Brown:

Which is heavier?

- 11 stories of WTC tower
- 25 stories of WTC tower

 

[hcmom]

Did they cut their tongues out to keep them from talking?

Their mouths were filled with concrete core...

 

[uruk]

Those diagonal braces are in the crane platform or of the "moment frame. the moment frame was outside the core and in line with the interior box columns.

Wow. That was incredibly weak Chris.
Look closer at the pictures. The frames holding the cranes are clearly visible in the outer corners of the core area. The cross connections are clearly conecting the core columns. These pictures clearly show that you are wrong.
Be a man and admit to it.

 

[uruk]

I also noted that you ignored this post.
Be a man Chris. admit to your mistakes. No human being is infallible.
everybody makes mistake or are wrong about something. Are you saying that you are never wrong or mistaken?

Originaly posted by Christophera:
"Tony Jebson" <jebbo@texas.net> wrote:

>......Apparently, the WTC towers had no internal
>structural columns but relied on the exterior structure for
>support / strength. No doubt the impact of an airplane does
>this no end of harm.
I worked in downtown NY in the late 1960's when the towers were
built! At lunch time we went to the construction site to watch the
progress. And we saw them first buildt an internal thick walled
rectangular concrete core inside which later the elevators ran. The
steel work was erected around this core several floors behind!

-=tom=-

Seems like "Tony Jebson" is a liar or seriously mistaken.

Where is the concrete core several floors ahead of the steel work in these pictures?

 

[Architect]

Gravy has my ARB (that's the Architects Registration Board) and RIBA (Royal Institute of British Architects) registration details which confirm - much to your disappointment, no doubt - that I am indeed a qualified architect with 15 years post-qualification experience.




Well Chris, there's a small problem there. You see the lift machinery at WTC generally went at the top of the shafts. So there's no point in installing them until you get to the plant level. On construction sites, we use temporary lifts pretty much until the final fitting out stage. Yes, even in tall buildings.



Bollocks.



We'd still be able to see the timber forms and their supporting framework. If you've ever seen in-situ concrete work you'd realise just how much formwork and support was required. It would not slide into invisibility in photographs.



Bollocks. Steel reinforcement is not welded and does not particularly need to be. It is tied or clipped. Welding is neither necessary or cost effective; do you really understand the structural issues?

I'd especially love you to tell me how the complex lateral junctions would work if they were welded.




Wrong again, mate. You really don't understand structures, do you?

Reinforcement only serves to take the tension loads, as concrete is only good in compression. Therefore the reinforcement is placed where the tensile loads are; so, for example, on a floor it goes on the underside and on a balcony on the topside. If (haha) WTC had a concrete core the arrangement of the reinforcement would have been rather complex.

I would have thought they would have mentioned that in your documentary.

Anyway the reason I ask you about the quantity of rebar is because it's important in debunking your argument. You see, you'd have to look at how much rebar was required, especially at the complex junctions, then the amount of concrete to cover it.

I think you'll find that it's rather a lot, and certainly the kind of thickness where it would be visible in construction photgraphs and the like.



It's a non-sensical question, Chris. Let me ask you one; are you using elastic or plastic structural theory to consider this?




Aha, the Tacoma Narrows. We did that in structures (gasp, horror, 4 years of it as part of our degrees). You're trying to use a cable suspension bridge as some sort of analagy. Apples and oranges spring to mind.

Anyway you fail on so many levels:

1. Steel is just as sutiable and strong as concrete; resistance to forces all comes down to design. It may be helpful if you (well, the sane readers) think of all framed structures as girder beams, where the floors and other members act as the web. The important thing is not the material, but rather how the web and flanges (ahem) interact with each other structurally.

2. Concrete is only strong in compression. Steel is strong in tension and compression. "Lateral forces" is irrelevant under such circumstances.

3. Tall buildings aren't designed to be completely rigid, mate. This may come as a shock to you.


Basically you're a fraud Chris; you don't understand even basic structural issues, and instead apply a ham fisted layman's interpretation onto what are actually perfectly clear photographs of a steel core getting built.

Performance art, or a troll. I don't buy delusional any more.

Chris,

I note that the only questions that you attempted a response to were the elevator rails (my response: "prove it"), and that regarding formwork heights.

What's wrong - the rest too hard?

 

[uruk]

Special plastic coating was not being welded onto rebar. The rebar was being welded and it had a special plastic coating.



Your position is grossly contradictory to the topic of "buildings built to demolish."




Your cognitive distortion and labeling indicate your attitude clouds you position.



I'm better than fairly sure that this is a very well contained detonation of high explosives contained in a uniform mineral material container.



Your world view is to narrow to deal with this subject comprehensively.

Chris, in no way what-so-ever did you answer or address anything that
Telly posted. A shining example of how you respond to posts.

ETA: Sorry, that should have been JonnyFive's post

 

[Architect]

I think the problem is that Chris can't imagine....oops, I mean remember....the answers.