Has Anyone Seen A Realistice Explanation For Free Fall Of The Towers?

[bonavada]

also once again chris.............

when quoting mike pecararo you didn't seem to notice that he says he smelt kerosene, or that he doesn't mention dust or particulate. and you still cannot explain how an explosion in the sub-levels can suck a fire door off it's hinges TOWARD an explosion below. also where is the information that the walls down there were exclusively reinforced concrete? are you sure there were no drywall composed walls down there?

??

BV

 

[Big Al]

I can only guess you do not understand the flex of steel. In the proportions of the tower the flex would be fatal to the structure.

Damn! Those guys weren't too clever when they told the whole WORLD they were going to make the core out of steel, were they? Lucky for them every structural engineer and architect was asleep when they said it, and only poor laymen like me heard about it. Or perhaps, with their marvellous foresight, the NWO just bought them ALL off.

This is the core of WTC 2 and it can only be concrete. Not one reasonable explanation of what it is if it is NOT concrete has ever been offered.

No, Chris, that is the same tired old pic you've shown us a hundred times, and it shows an opaque cloud. It could be from sheetrock, the concrete floors or from belly-button fluff. Your mere didactic statement that it's from the core doesn't make it so.

No reasonable explanation for WHY the supposed steel core columns do not protrude in some way from the top has ever been offered.

Can you show me a steel-core building where the steel has remained protruding after its collapse? The core is meant to support the whole building. If the building has collapsed then ipso facto, the core has collapsed, too.


Can't you get it through your head that your pictures and endless reiterations of "it's undeniable" and "this is not in doubt" are not convincing anyone?

For me, the whole thing flounders on the nonsense idea that the proudest skyscrapers in New York, perhaps in the U.S.A., would have been deliberately built to be destroyed on some future President's idle whim.

 

[uruk]

First all atempts to produce reasonable evidence are abandoned, even the sadly misrepresented kind.

Then all efforts at reasonable discussion are abandoned. All in support of a sad lie.

I believe it's called "responding in kind".

 

[Christophera]

Chris

I've got to hand it to you. You're creating a work of fantasy, possibly even some sort of performance art.

1. Why do the elevator guide rails have to extend beyond the working platform?

I know you are not an architect and I've answered these questions before but I also know you are all about wasting my time and have no real interest in the truth. However, it cannot appear as if I cannot answer these questions which I can answer.

The elevator guide rail SUPPORT steel does not have to stick up over the temporary floor in the core. The priority of the job was to keep the elevator acess as far up as possible. Meaning that every now and then, the guide rail support steel did stick up over the top floor.

2. Why did the "concrete core" have to catch up evey 80ft or so and what proof do you have?

Only 40 feet of concrete can be poured before hydrostatic pressures of concrete blow out wood forms. Engineers determined that the unequal loading of the kangaroo cranes working together could easily over load and damage the steel framework so limited the steel over the concrete to 7 floors. The Steelworker I interviewed remembered this. There were a few time where exceptions were allowed but cranes must have been limited in their loads during those phases.

3. Perhaps you can tell me why, then, we can't see 80ft of formwork or rebar?

The forms are always inside the interior box columns and the rebar inside the steel framework in shadow.

4. A propos of which, can you tell me how they join 3" rebar; how do the lateral junctions work?

The documentary noted a number of times that the big slowdown in the concrete core construction was because of a shortage of welders that had security clearance to perform the butt weld in the high tensile steel rebar used in the concrete shear walls of the core. A security clearnace was required because of the thick "special plastic coating" on the rebar. Later the videographers discovered that the reason the security clearance was required was because the rebar s plastic coating was "flammable". The lateral junctions were tied in a normal fashion. The horizontal bar had the same "special plastic coating".

5. How much do you need to resist torsion, and where does it go in the core?

Your question is unclear. If it is "How much rebar", I can say I don't know. The rebar is always centered in concrete walls. The rebar was on 4 foot centers and 3" inches in diameter all the way to the top.

How about you answer my question about how much added resistance to torsion that interior steel columns add to a square set of perimeter walls when the field of steel columns is about 1/2 the dimension of the square?

6. If we take standard cover depths for Rebar, what thickness does the concrete have to be to accommodate all the reinforcement

required?

I've answered enough of your questions and I couldn't tell you exactly. Generally four times the bar diameter is a minimum.

7. Why can't steel resist torsion (not that we call it that)? Why does it have to be concrete?

Steel flexes in very long members whether vertical or horizontal. In the documentary they played a clip of the Tacoma narrow bridge twisting.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8849554834285920420&q=tacoma+narrows+bridge&hl=en

Concrete is rigid and absorbed lateral forces as well as torsion. That was the role of the concrete core in the WTC towers.

 

[Christophera]

I believe it's called "responding in kind".

No, that would be an error. I have consistently produced competetn evidence and provided explanations that are reasonable for the MISREPRESENTED evidence that the deniers of the concrete core present in trying to support the steel core columns.

The concrete shown HEREl as a part of the concrete shear wall of the core in this larger image has neven been explained by the deniers of the concrete core.

Which proves your assertion to be wrong.

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

Trying to convince people they are not seeing what is there to see?

What is in that image? You say it's concrete, but the only evidence that you've offered is that YOU haven't seen another explanation. If you want to do a proof by elimination, you have to list all other possibilities and then prove that none of them could be true. So far you haven't done that.

This is the 3 inch rebar which is probably moving around quite a bit, which would make you pixel arguement null and void..

Sorry. They wouldn't be swaying fast enough to fill up an area several pixels wide in the image exposure time.

Also, over a hundred of them are in a line or nearly so, and that will be larger than a pixel.

Over a hundred pieces of rebar, each apparently over 200 feet long (according to my crude measurements, the "spire" is at least 16 stories tall), all standing at exactly the same angle. And if they are moving as you claim, all moving at the same (or nearly the same) speed and in the same phase?

Clearly this image of and interior box column "the spire" which is just over 2 feet wide, perhaps there are 2, one slightly behind the other, was taken a second before that of the rebar, so the scale is correct and we are looking at 3 inch rebar.

Could these be 2 pictures of the same thing? In any case, your "reasoning" about the scale being correct is non-sensical.

What should not be over looked, is that there are NO STEEL core columns in the core area.

Your only proof is your claim that there is a concrete object. Since you haven't proven that there is a concrete object, you haven't proven anything about what is in that image. The "spire" image looks to me like steel columns with the debris cloud in between.

 

[beachnut]

The concrete shown HEREl as a part of the concrete shear wall of the core in this larger image has neven been explained by the deniers of the concrete core.

Which proves your assertion to be wrong.

Darn, that is wall board over steel!

Wrong again. you need real evidence or you should hang it up!

 

[Christophera]

Actually, the fact that reality seems to disagree with your memories should make you doubt the MEMORIES, not reality.

The fact that the steel core columns are not seen in this image but rebar is proves your assertion wrong.

Your assertion is proven wrong again because steel core columns are not protruding from the center of the core area of the WTC 2 core where they should be if they existed.

My memories are accurate. More accurate than most peoples because this is very important and I knew that when I was watching the towers constrcuted in the 1990 doumentary titled, "The Constrcution of the Twin Towers."

They were amazing structures that were built incredibly strong and planes plus fires as we saw could NEVER do this to them, or any structure that size. What we saw on 9-11 was nohting less that a high speed series of super well contained and distributed detonations of high explosives.

 

[Christophera]

Darn, that is wall board over steel!

Wrong again. you need real evidence or you should hang it up!

Your answer is ridiculous, unreasonable, facetious and mocking the true explanation for an event that killed 3000 innocent people.

http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

My memories are accurate. More accurate than most peoples because this is very important and I knew that when I was watching the towers constrcuted in the 1990 doumentary titled, "The Constrcution of the Twin Towers."

So you watched the documentary because you knew the WTC was going to be blown up some day and you wanted to learn how?

 

[Christophera]

also once again chris.............

when quoting mike pecararo you didn't seem to notice that he says he smelt kerosene,

It would be expected that he smelled jet fuel.

http://www.chiefengineer.org/article.cfm?seqnum1=1029
Mike told his co-worker to call upstairs to their Assistant Chief Engineer and find out if everything was all right. His co-worker made the call and reported back to Mike that he was told that the Assistant Chief did not know what happened but that the whole building seemed to shake and there was a loud explosion. They had been told to stay where they were and "sit tight" until the Assistant Chief got back to them.
The two decided to ascend the stairs to the C level, to a small machine shop where Vito Deleo and David Williams were supposed to be working. When the two arrived at the C level, they found the machine shop gone.
"There was nothing there but rubble" Mike said. "We're talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press - gone!" The two began yelling for their co-workers, but there was no answer. They saw a perfect line of smoke streaming through the air. "You could stand here," he said, "and two inches over you couldn't breathe. We couldn't see through the smoke so we started screaming." But there was still no answer.
The two made their way to the parking garage, but found that it, too, was gone. ‘There were no walls, there was rubble on the floor, and you can't see anything’ he said

or that he doesn't mention dust or particulate.

Mike Pecoraro had no way of knowing that rebar coated with plastic explosive had detonated turning the walls to rubble. When high explosives are optimally contained by mineral materials the minerals in close proximity are turned to extremely fine particales which are also very hot. He had no way of knowing what was smoke was actually concrete particulate. You cannot breath that and that was exactly his experience

and you still cannot explain how an explosion in the sub-levels can suck a fire door off it's hinges TOWARD an explosion below.

i don't have to explain that because there were other explosions that were documented. Remember William Rodriguez?

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?id=7762
There were a total of fourteen people in the office at this time. As he was talking with others, there was a very loud massive explosion which seemed to emanate from between sub-basement B2 and B3. There were twenty-two people on B2 sub-basement who also felt and heard that first explosion.??At first he thought it was a generator that had exploded. But the cement walls in the office cracked from the explosion. "When I heard the sound of the explosion, the floor beneath my feet vibrated, the walls started cracking and everything started shaking." said Rodriguez, who was crowded together with fourteen other people in the office including Anthony Saltamachia, supervisor for the American Maintenance Company

also where is the information that the walls down there were exclusively reinforced concrete? are you sure there were no drywall composed walls down there?

BV

I've answered enough of your question and Mike Pecoraro calls out "rubble" framed walls of drywall are referred to as "debris".

How about you explain why no steel core columns are seen here or [url=http://amanzafar.no-ip.com/WTC/wtc41.JPG]here?
[/url]

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Perhaps my question has been too difficult. I'll rephrase it.

Which weighs more:

- 11 bowls of Cocoa Puffs
- 25 bowls of Cocoa Puffs

And for extra credit:

Are you cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs?

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

The fact that the steel core columns are not seen in this image but rebar is proves your assertion wrong.

It is NOT rebar, for reasons that I've already explained.

 

[jsfisher]

This whole thread gives new meaning to the term, Brownian motion.

 

[Bell]

 

[tsig]

First all atempts to produce reasonable evidence are abandoned, even the sadly misrepresented kind.

Then all efforts at reasonable discussion are abandoned. All in support of a sad lie.

It's sad to lie makes the Baby Jesus cry.

 

[tsig]

Trying to convince people they are not seeing what is there to see?

This is the 3 inch rebar which is probably moving around quite a bit, which would make you pixel arguement null and void.. Also, over a hundred of them are in a line or nearly so, and that will be larger than a pixel.

Clearly this image of and interior box column "the spire" which is just over 2 feet wide, perhaps there are 2, one slightly behind the other, was taken a second before that of the rebar, so the scale is correct and we are looking at 3 inch rebar.

What should not be over looked, is that there are NO STEEL core columns in the core area.

Steel, ve don't need no stinking' steel man!

 

[bonavada]

It would be expected that he smelled jet fuel.

yes it would be. especially if thousands of gallons had ignited in the building above and cascaded explosively down elevator shafts right? strange how, conveniently, you don't consider this option when formulating conclusions of what happened down there huh?

http://www.chiefengineer.org/article.cfm?seqnum1=1029
Mike told his co-worker to call upstairs to their Assistant Chief Engineer and find out if everything was all right. His co-worker made the call and reported back to Mike that he was told that the Assistant Chief did not know what happened but that the whole building seemed to shake and there was a loud explosion

note here that mike pecararo and his workmate were aware of only ONE explosion and report no other.

Mike Pecoraro had no way of knowing that rebar coated with plastic explosive had detonated turning the walls to rubble. When high explosives are optimally contained by mineral materials the minerals in close proximity are turned to extremely fine particales which are also very hot. He had no way of knowing what was smoke was actually concrete particulate. You cannot breath that and that was exactly his experience

this is an amusingly spurious explanation. i would suggest that if anyone has the authority to dictate mike pecararos experience it would be mike pecararo. your attempt to put words into mike's mouth here are pathetic.

i don't have to explain that because there were other explosions that were documented. Remember William Rodriguez?

ETA: get it right chris not that you DON'T HAVE TO explain it...YOU CAN'T explain it. there was only ONE explosion and that was above the firedoor. story, end of.

now......not withstanding that i was discussing mike pecararo....i believe william rodriguez' story has had more changes than michael jackson's nostrils. and anyway i think that nothing he says proves any of your outlandish theory of exploding rebar in the basement.

I've answered enough of your question and Mike Pecoraro calls out "rubble" framed walls of drywall are referred to as "debris".

no chris. i can't let you get away with this. debris, rubble, they are just words mate.
a couple of dictionary definitions:-
rubble: The remains of something destroyed, disintegrated, or decayed
rubble: A jumbled mass of rough or broken things
debris: The scattered remains of something broken or destroyed; rubble or wreckage
debris: Carelessly discarded refuse; litter

the two words are highly interchangable and your definitions are a hark-back to newspeak 1984.


NOTHING mike pecararo says supports your basement explosion theory. you have stated before that the walls down there were made of reinforced concrete. where did you get that information? why can't you tell us?

How about you explain why no steel core columns are seen <A href="http://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.king2/spire_dust-3.jpg" target=_blank>here or here?

i have chris, quite a few times. once again though..........whatever the structures standing in those pictures are, neither i, nor you, could say with any certainty what they are. there may be steel columns, there may not. most people i think would agree with me.


keep wriggling chris.

BV

 

[Bell]

Perhaps my question has been too difficult. I'll rephrase it.

Which weighs more:

- 11 bowls of Cocoa Puffs
- 25 bowls of Cocoa Puffs

And for extra credit:

Are you cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs?

Poor Regnad
Why don't the nutters ever answer his simple questions?

 

[tsig]

The fact that the steel core columns are not seen in this image but rebar is proves your assertion wrong.

Your assertion is proven wrong again because steel core columns are not protruding from the center of the core area of the WTC 2 core where they should be if they existed.



My memories are accurate. More accurate than most peoples because this is very important and I knew that when I was watching the towers constrcuted in the 1990 doumentary titled, "The Constrcution of the Twin Towers."

They were amazing structures that were built incredibly strong and planes plus fires as we saw could NEVER do this to them, or any structure that size. What we saw on 9-11 was nohting less that a high speed series of super well contained and distributed detonations of high explosives.

Just making it up as you go along. You and Joe Smith would get along well.