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Thank you for verifying what I knew in regards to one intercept and thanks for explaining the difference between CONUS and ADIZ. I guess now any woowoos that actually read and understood your post can give up their ridiculous stand down theory.

You deserve a round of applause for your post so...

:bigclap


:D Thanks. For a more detailed look at NORAD, I have written a document that addresses the NORAD Stand-down theory.

It includes information on NORAD and its mission, standard intercept proceedures, the 9/11 wargames, and a minute-by-minute timeline of NORAD's response to the attacks.

It is also a little out of date and I really should finish my second draft. :o

-Gumboot
 
Actually I gave the times from moment of hijacking, not take off. For UA175 and UA93 there is a further delay until FIRST SIGNS OF HIJACKING (5 minutes for UA175 and 11 minutes for UA93), but more telling is the contrast if the times are given from when NORAD were notified of the hijacking in each case. That gives you an intercept window of 9 minutes (AA11), 0 minutes (UA175), 2 minutes (AA77) and -4 minutes (UA93).

Given that on 9/11 NORAD Alert aircraft were on 15 minute standby, all four flights would have been down before the interceptors even got into the air, assuming they were scrambled the moment NORAD was notified.

-Gumboot

And then you also have to take into account the small number (4 IIRC) of fighterplanes and the number (11 IIRC) of suspected hijacked airplanes.
 
The "scramble Vs intercept" is often brought up in response to the "many intercepts" figure, but it is a very misleading response.

The 67 in the months prior to 9/11 (I think it was 6 months, not a year) should be considered intercepts, giving CTers the benefit of the doubt.

However...

NORAD's area of responsibility is the Air Defence Identification Zone - or ADIZ. This is a "buffer" zone located over water at the edges of the USA.

You can see the Continental US ADIZ here.

It is defined by Federal Aviation Regulation Part 99 section 43:



Intercepts inside the ADIZ are, and always have been, routine. There is standard proceedure for these intercepts.

However, the 9/11 attacks did not involve aircraft operating inside the ADIZ. They were domestic flights over CONUS (Continential United States) airspace. Prior to 9/11 there was NO standard intercept proceedure for flights inside CONUS. Standard hijacking proceedure was to notify the FAA and hand over control to the FBI. As a domestic crime, only the FBI had the authority to request military support.

So the question that should be asked is:

Did NORAD perform any successful intercepts inside CONUS Airspace prior to 9/11?

The answer is yes. In the decade prior to 9/11 NORAD was involved in ONE intercept.

This was October 25th, 1999. The aircraft was N47BA - a Learjet35 owned by Payne Stewart.

The NTSB report on this incident is here.

So how well did NORAD do on this occasion?

Well, first off, some basic comparisons:

1) N47BA did not deviate from its intended flightplan.
2) The transponder onboard N47BA remained on at all times throughout the intercept.

Neither of the above is true of the 9/11 flights. This make intercept many magnitudes more difficult.

So then, how well did NORAD do?

The first intercept aircraft - a test pilot from the 40th Flight Test Squadron at Eglin AFB, Florida, reached N47BA 81 minutes after communication was lost.

So let's compare that to the flights of 9/11, and total flight duration of those aircraft:

FLIGHT HIJACKING CRASH DURATION
AA11 0813 0846 33 minutes
UA175 0847 0903 16 minutes
AA77 0856 0937 41 minutes
UA93 0928 1003 35 minutes

So the intercept of N47BA - an aircraft with transponder functioning and in straight level flight - took almost TWICE AS LONG as the longest flight duration on 9/11 - that of AA77.

The facts speak for themselves. A successful intercept of any of the 9/11 flights was impossible.

-Gumboot

ETA.

It is worth noting that the times I gave are from the moment of hijacking. Of more relevance is the "window of opportunity" - the time between when NORAD were notified of a hijacking and when that flight crashed. On 9/11 the longest window of opportunity that NORAD would receive was 9 minutes for AA11. The N47BA intercept took 9 times as long.
Someone with alot of free time should post this in every known woowoo forum. Can't understand their avoidance of logic, evidence and common sense. :(
 
And then you also have to take into account the small number (4 IIRC) of fighterplanes and the number (11 IIRC) of suspected hijacked airplanes.


Yup. And of course those 4 aircraft were in pairs, so essentially they had two aircraft, to intercept a suspected 11 hijackings (that's only in the first 90 minutes!).

-Gumboot
 
Hierosis is missing that not many around here argue that incompetence led to 9-11. This argument is perhaps natural from those who believe in CTs because it's an alternative reason why the ominipotent powers of NORAD were not brought to bear on the supposed hijackers.

What we don't believe in, Hierosis, are those omnipotent powers. We believe that the men and women of NORAD and the ATC centers were doing the best they could while operating under what we now understand to have been tragically mistaken assumptions. Were mistakes made? Yep. Were they honest mistakes? Yep.

Brainster,

Please link me to the post where I specifically accussed NORAD and the ATRC Centers of incompetence. I think you're the one who is missing something here. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT 9/11 WAS THE RESULT OF INCOMPETENCE.

The people who work at NORAD, related agencies and most lower level government officials are good people who do what they do because they are honest. So don't put words in my mouth.
 
Hierosis' game should be evident to all by now. He is trying to get Gravy and others to argue for the faulty positions in his statements disguised as questions.

He is here to impress his CT buddies with his debating chess skills. If he was sincere, he wouldn't consistently treat straightforward questions from Gravy and others like personal attacks. Since Hierosis uses tricky statements disguised as questions, he assumes everyone else does. If he was sincere, he wouldn't consistently respond with questions when Gravy and others respond to his initial statement/question. Honest people are thankful for an answer. They don't pretend to be blind and deaf by rewording the original question that was ALREADY answered or explained to be faulty.

Hierosis, please take your disrespectful chess game else here. 3,000 dead Americans deserve better.


First, I have no CT buddies to impress and that's not my game. To kill two birds with one stone, I came here to have a discussion. Yeah, I may be a bit of a wise@ss at times, but that's just me. Don't take it personally. I also came here to get your side of the story (all of you), not to have my questions answered as Mark suggested above.
Would it have been a better idea if I joined the Loose Change forum and DID NOT try to look at things from both sides. Damned if you do, damned if you don't I suppose.
 
Yup. And of course those 4 aircraft were in pairs, so essentially they had two aircraft, to intercept a suspected 11 hijackings (that's only in the first 90 minutes!).

-Gumboot

And even then... what IF the fighter intercepted the hijacked planes? There was nothing they could do, except tail them to their crash sites.
 
Hierosis said:
I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT 9/11 WAS THE RESULT OF INCOMPETENCE.

You need to start making positive statements. Will you tell us what you believe 9/11 WAS a result of? If you are sincere, you will.

Hierosis said:
Would it have been a better idea if I joined the Loose Change forum and DID NOT try to look at things from both sides. Damned if you do, damned if you don't I suppose.

In your own mind perhaps. You came here to pretend to be a neutral truth seeker. However, you play coy games by arguing through questions without committing to a side. You want the benefit of forcing the burden of proof for EVERYTHING on Gravy and others without staking a clear position of your own.

How do you accidentally change the subject and cry about imaginary matters? No one in here is attacking you for allegedly seeking both sides. This is a figment of your imagination. You HAVE been criticized for your lack of proper reasoning and blind refusal to comprehend sourced material offered in response to your questions.

You are perfectly welcome to stay in the forum. We only ask that you conduct yourself in a proper manner.
 
And even then... what IF the fighter intercepted the hijacked planes? There was nothing they could do, except tail them to their crash sites.

If there had been 4 shoot downs that day, (and no incident other than the 'official story' of 4 hijackings) you can imagine what the CT'ers would have to say about that!
 
If there had been 4 shoot downs that day, (and no incident other than the 'official story' of 4 hijackings) you can imagine what the CT'ers would have to say about that!
There were 67 intercepts prior to 9/11 with no shoot downs. On 9/11 those fascist bastards at NORAD shot down 4 civilian airliners...is that a good guess as to what they would say?
 
You need to start making positive statements. Will you tell us what you believe 9/11 WAS a result of? If you are sincere, you will.



In your own mind perhaps. You came here to pretend to be a neutral truth seeker. However, you play coy games by arguing through questions without committing to a side. You want the benefit of forcing the burden of proof for EVERYTHING on Gravy and others without staking a clear position of your own.

How do you accidentally change the subject and cry about imaginary matters? No one in here is attacking you for allegedly seeking both sides. This is a figment of your imagination. You HAVE been criticized for your lack of proper reasoning and blind refusal to comprehend sourced material offered in response to your questions.

You are perfectly welcome to stay in the forum. We only ask that you conduct yourself in a proper manner.

Stone, I don't think there's ANYTHING I could say that you wouldn't find fault with at this point. Positive statements? Excuse me, but you're the one whose been attacking me and being, well, overly negative.

So, whatever rules you are referring to are clearly not ones you abide by yourself.
 
Stone, I don't think there's ANYTHING I could say that you wouldn't find fault with at this point. Positive statements? Excuse me, but you're the one whose been attacking me and being, well, overly negative.

So, whatever rules you are referring to are clearly not ones you abide by yourself.

I think what Stone means, is that any time you are asked what you believe happened on 9/11, you do one of three things.

  • Ignore the question
  • Dodge the question
  • Reply with a narrow statement about what you do not believe
So to repeat Stone:

Will you tell us what you believe 9/11 WAS a result of? If you are sincere, you will.
 
Gentlemen, Gentlemen!

I invited Hierosis to come on this board and speak about a specific topic. He does not have to give us his entire political views/a timeline of events on 9/11 to make a point that he feels is valid.

Considering the response he's getting (not that at times he isn't dishing a bit of it out himself), I would completely understand his not desiring to elaborate on every single opinion he has on the matter.

Just as I don't appreciate it that when I make a point, a CTer demands that I show him every single piece of evidence I have that Atta was involved, or EXACTLY how I think the WTC7 fell.

I, however, am thoroughly enjoying some of the more respectful debate and edification (jiminy, gumboot, thank you).

I still love everyone here. And so does my mother.
 
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Brainster,

Please link me to the post where I specifically accussed NORAD and the ATRC Centers of incompetence. I think you're the one who is missing something here. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT 9/11 WAS THE RESULT OF INCOMPETENCE.

The people who work at NORAD, related agencies and most lower level government officials are good people who do what they do because they are honest. So don't put words in my mouth.

Sigh. I did not say you thought they were incompetent. I said you appear to think that we think they're incompetent. Or perhaps it is other people who you think that we think are incompetent. To remind you, you said about Gravy:

You're the one who feels that the incompetence theory is all there is to it.

But of course nobody here has been saying that incompetence is all there was to 9-11. I personally see it as an enemy exploiting a weakness that we did not know was there because we could not conceive of such a savage and barbaric attack.
 

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