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Double Tree Video Released?

Debunk911Myths said:
62,040,606 American voters (a majority) in 2004 did not fault the administration for failing to "connect the dots" and foresee the 9/11 attacks, and for various reasons were content with status quo.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/president/

Of course, 59,028,109 American voters were dissatisfied for various reasons, but that wasn't enough. I don't fault the government for failing to "connect the dots" or the "failure of imagination".

I'm not sure if you have a realistic idea of the government's capabilities. It's not at all like Hollywood, but is rather like a huge and very slow elephant. There are ~2 million employees scattered in offices all around the Washington area, FBI and other agency field offices across the country, and around the world. Combine that with government's slow adoption of technology to aid in information sharing, and bureaucratic/legal "walls" that inhibit interagency coordination, and failure to "connect the dots" is no surprise.

http://news.com.com/Critics+Management,+not+IT+money,+is+FBI+problem/2100-1028_3-5191646.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/17/AR2006081701485.html

As for holding officials accountable, folks like George Tenet and Louis Freeh are gone. On the other hand, if FAA and NORAD leadership lied to the 9/11 Commission to hide their incompetence, I wouldn't be sad to see them go. But overall, the problems are more systematic than anything, in terms of what the government could have done to prevent 9/11.

-Kate
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Kate,

I have a very good idea of how the government works, as I've worked with government officials and run for office.

Regardless, so since Freeh and Tenet resigned, they're clear??? That's all?? One simply has to resign from a government position to avoid discipline.

Have you read the book that Kean and Hamilton released earlier this year??? You know, the one about how difficult the administration made the investigation???

And finally,

The 2004 election was NOT a referendum on 9/11. If you think it was, I have a list of books I'd recommend.
 
Gravy said:
Don't put words in my mouth. It's your claim, and I asked a reasonable question about it. Specifically whom do you think should be held accountable, and how?
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No no, see, I don't accept the official explanation. But I'm also not abligated by law to give you an alternate theory and pretend like I'm an expert on building structure, military action, war games, NORAD, etc...

But having seen you in action, it seems clear that you feel that the 9/11 Commission report covered all the needed bases. Therefore, you would accept the idea that this all happened due to complete incomentance. So I would redirect the question to you of, "how do we deal with this incredible incompentence??"

Oh, and I meant to put this in my reply Kate. They were not able to imagine a scenario like this? Have you at all read about Operation Bojinka? If not, I'd suggest looking it up.
 
Debunk911Myths said:
Ho hum... this is boring.

A while back, I posted some photos here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1930783

Here's where everything is located:

http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/images/thumb/c/c6/Doubletreemap.jpg/600px-Doubletreemap.jpg


Here are some more photos.

Looking down Army Navy Dr., towards S. Eads, from the Doubletree. The highway (I-395) obstructs the view of the Pentagon:
http://www.debunk911myths.org/topic..._armynavy2.jpg/600px-Doubletree_armynavy2.jpg


This is looking directly across the street (Army Navy Dr.) from the Doubletree. Not much to see:
http://www.debunk911myths.org/topic...tree_highway.jpg/600px-Doubletree_highway.jpg


And here's another tour of the area:

This is slightly up the road (Army Navy Dr.) from the Doubletree, looking down S. Eads where it passes under the I-395 overpass from the Pentagon S. Parking Lot. Same overpass as seen in the first picture. This is the most you can see of the Pentagon from this side of the highway:
http://www.debunk911myths.org/topic...ee_armynavy.jpg/600px-Doubletree_armynavy.jpg


And this is a view of Army Navy Dr., from S. Eads (and down the street from the Doubletree). The buildings off in the distance (on the left side of the image) are Navy Annex buildings. Also note the construction cranes and spires (Air Force Memorial, which is now open):

http://www.debunk911myths.org/topic...outh_eads.jpg/600px-Doubletree_south_eads.jpg


If you continue down this street 3 blocks, you hit S. Joyce St. This photo is the view from Army Navy Dr. The plane passed overhead, just on other side of the overpass. The Citgo is visible down the street.

http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/images/9/92/South_joyce.jpg


For some perspective, the Pentagon as seen from the Citgo:
http://www.debunk911myths.org/topic...ntagon_view.jpg/600px-Citgo_pentagon_view.jpg


And, the Citgo and Navy Annex buildings seen from along Washington Boulevard, next to the Pentagon(and the Air Force Memorial spires - now open):

http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/images/thumb/7/78/Washblvd3.jpg/600px-Washblvd3.jpg

End of tour.


Anyway, I'm finding this boring, tiresome, and absurd to keep debating the Pentagon no-planers. I've been compiling witness accounts (in progress) of people who saw the plane. I may plot their locations on a map and make it into Macromedia Flash presentation or something.

-Kate
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Cool photos Kate.

Feels like I am back on Columbia Pike again...aaah memories.

Kate, the plane was on the North side of the gas station and didn't hit the light poles or the building.

It was a flyover.
 
Hierosis said:
No no, see, I don't accept the official explanation. But I'm also not abligated by law to give you an alternate theory and pretend like I'm an expert on building structure, military action, war games, NORAD, etc...

But having seen you in action, it seems clear that you feel that the 9/11 Commission report covered all the needed bases. Therefore, you would accept the idea that this all happened due to complete incomentance. So I would redirect the question to you of, "how do we deal with this incredible incompentence??"

Oh, and I meant to put this in my reply Kate. They were not able to imagine a scenario like this? Have you at all read about Operation Bojinka? If not, I'd suggest looking it up.
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Got it. You feel that someone should be held accountable for incompetence but you can't say who, or how they should be held accountable. It's fine to have feelings about these things, but its unproductive to complain about them without being able to support your postion or suggest solutions.
 
Gravy said:
Got it. You feel that someone should be held accountable for incompetence but you can't say who, or how they should be held accountable. It's fine to have feelings about these things, but its unproductive to complain about them without being able to support your postion or suggest solutions.
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Now you're putting words in my mouth Gravy. If you can't back up your own theories, to quote flavor flav, "I got nothin' for ya man."
 
Hierosis said:
Oh no no brother,
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No matter how much you like my avatar, we are not brothers, I assure you.

I have read that incredible Tom Clancy feature. Curiously, have you read "Without Precedent?" This is the book that was written by Kean and Hamilton earlier this year where they talk about how much information they were DENIED access to, thus limiting the effectiveness of their investigation. If not, I'd make a trip to amazon.
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No, I haven't read Without Precedent. I consider your recommendation to read it to be a pretty fair one.

How do you reconcile calling the 9/11 commission report a "Tom Clancy feature", yet hold a book written by the co-chairs of this same commission in such high regard?

As far as Moussaouii, so you're telling me that prosecuting someone who didn't take part in the ACTUAL ATTACKS is considered justice? Surely you jest sir. And I still think you're not quote getting the concept of GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR MISERABLE FAILURES ON AND BEFORE 9/11.
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YOU stated:
Ok, if it was all simple incompetance, how was NO ONE help accountable
Click to expand...

Then I demonstrated that to date someone (Moussaouii) was indeed held accountable (indicted and convicted), thereby disproving your assertion.

Now, you whine about the unfairness of Moussaouii being held accountable because he didn't participate in the actual atacks, and in the same absurd sentence further whine about government officials (who had nothing to do with planning or implementing the events of 9/11....and therefore also did not participate in the actual attacks) not being held accountable for the same attacks.

As far as me not understanding concepts, the fault for that in this case rests with the sender of the message (you). The assertion that you STATED was that NO ONE was held accountable.

I now infer from your last post that the assertion that you MEANT was that NO ONE EMPLOYED BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT was held accountable.

Excuse me for not being a mind reader. You'll need to explain yourself much better than this in the future if you want to be taken seriously on this board.

With all of that out of the way:

What government officials and employees to you believe should be held accountable?

What evidence of their wrongdoings do you have to offer?

What do you propose be the punishment of those that failed us in your eyes?

If you can't provide a meaningful answer to all three of the above questions, please don't waste my time answering any of them.
 
Hierosis said:
Now you're putting words in my mouth Gravy. If you can't back up your own theories, to quote flavor flav, "I got nothin' for ya man."
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My theories? What might those be, o Great Karnak? :con2:
 
troll trying to pose as a truth seeker said:
Gravy Train!!! I was wondering when I would be cited by you.
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Hierosis is simply another undercover conspiracy troll. He may have watched a couple of conspiracy videos and read a book or two.

He complains about a lack of punishment for those accountable. He fails to identify those responsible, explain why they're responsible, and define the punishment.

This is all he has: innuendo and answering a response to a statement/question he raised with another question.

Honestly, you have no business crusading for 9/11 TWOOF if you haven't even taken the time to read the 9/11 Report. How can you attack something if you don't have the foggiest notion as to what is?
 
Hierosis said:
Dude, no it wasn't. Stop embarrassing yourself and anyone else who has questions about 9/11.

Thanks.
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Hey champ.

We are the guys who went to the Pentagon area and obtained THE smoking gun based on interviewing witnesses.

Don't embarrass yourself by talking to me like that.

Did you go to the VA area and interview witnesses?

Did you?
 
Skeptic4Sure said:
Hey champ.

We are the guys who went to the Pentagon area and obtained THE smoking gun based on interviewing witnesses.

Don't embarrass yourself by talking to me like that.

Did you go to the VA area and interview witnesses?

Did you?
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Did you go to the VA area, interview eyewitnesses, and when they contradicted your beliefs and supported the official version, claim that they are liars who may be government agents?

Did you?

You did!
 
It's coming from all sides! Debunkers vs. truthers! Truthers vs. Question Askerers!

Seriously though, anyone read that Without Precedent thing?
 
StoneWT said:
Hierosis is simply another undercover conspiracy troll. He may have watched a couple of conspiracy videos and read a book or two.
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Come on, now let's be fair. From what I can read of his posts, Hierosis is showing no signs of being a troll.

He seems to be a genuinely concerned individual, and like any ordinary person, he didn't study the entire 9/11 issue at length.
 
Gravy said:
Did you go to the VA area, interview eyewitnesses, and when they contradicted your beliefs and supported the official version, claim that they are liars who may be government agents?

Did you?

You did!
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Thuffering Thucatash.

Oh god, stalker. Get off it, Your world is about to crumble.

Did you interview anybody? Didn't think so.

hahahahahaha....North Side pal. You are DONE.
 
Skeptic4Sure said:
Hey champ.

We are the guys who went to the Pentagon area and obtained THE smoking gun based on interviewing witnesses.

Don't embarrass yourself by talking to me like that.

Did you go to the VA area and interview witnesses?

Did you?
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Hey champ, I worked there for four years.

I can remember having to explain the concept of a secure perimeter to Merc over the LC boards.

I spent quite a bit of time in the specific area you are talking about. It looks much different today than it did on 9/11/2001.

You never had a chance to be on site.

You never even were "in the area" before the reconfiguration of the area itself.

You are the embarrassment.

Why don't you take a field trip to a petting zoo, find another board, and pretend you are a veterinarian? It would be about the same thing you are doing here.
 
(CBS) This is the story of hundreds, if not thousands, of foreign language documents that the FBI neglected to translate before and after the Sept. 11 attacks -- documents that detailed what the FBI heard on wiretaps and learned during interrogations of suspected terrorists.

Sibel Edmonds, a translator who worked at the FBI's language division, says the documents weren't translated because the division was riddled with incompetence and corruption.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/25/60minutes/main526954.shtml

After this story broke she was placed under a gag order.


"The Inspector General's report contains confirmed evidence of intentional, not accidental, criminality. The validity of the evidence has been confirmed by Senators Grassley and Leahy, and by the FBI."

http://www.baltimorechronicle.com/121704Hogue.shtml
 
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Pardalis said:
Come on, now let's be fair. From what I can read of his posts, Hierosis is showing no signs of being a troll.

He seems to be a genuinely concerned individual, and like any ordinary person, he didn't study the entire 9/11 issue at length.
Click to expand...

I think he is here for a game of wits. Constantly trying to force the burden of proof onto people attempting to help him when he brought up an issue isn't a good sign.

SkepticFoSho' is bragging about the work he did. It's all about tooting your own horn.
 
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