Hi Fi suicide??? Im audiophooling :(

[pipelineaudio]

I am in shame and humiliation

For all the wisecracking I do about audiophiles and audio woo in particular I fel like I am lying in a pile of Shakti stones in a glass house throwing rocks

I have been tasked to design some speakers that can be used by large studio control rooms, AND for home entertainment type systems for fairly hi end recording artists. Price was no object, but I meant to be reasonable

I dont know jack about speakers, but I know rooms. I dont get out much, so even as young as I am, I DO know an awful lot about room acoustics. Because of the previous two sentences, I designed them the only way I knew how ( like rooms )

I got some sketchups on paper and started crunching numbers and thinking of what if's, jousting with Murphy's law. I drew up some plans and the company started prototyping.

Now, my plans seemed rather easy to me, on paper

But in practice, the very shapes and type of construction amounted to a DIFFICULT and extreme amount of work

SO now I am told, the speakers would have to sell for over thirty thousand US dollars

errr

THIRTY THOUSAND DOLLARS?????????

This is like the worst joke from the audiophile world! WAY overpriced total crap. Yet I cant argue their numbers, the design really takes that much expense in small runs (and how wouldnt the run be small, like zero if its THIRTY THOUSAND DOLLARS?????)

SO how do I, mr Extreme Ghetto Technology (tm) who is known for using 60cent PVC pipes as diffusors, using spray can caps as mic traps, hell, using used bar mats as isolators supposed to justify thirty thousand dollar speakers????

Is it possible to be in this price range and not be total audiophoolery?

 

[MRC_Hans]

Mmm, you need to learn to design for producability.
Well, since price was no object, I suppose your customer won't mind too much. Let's just hope they sound good (just make sure anybody listening knows the price).

Nearly any product can be made cheaper in larger numbers.

Hans

 

[pipelineaudio]

they do sound good...they sound exciting enough for the home, yet I would trust them to mix an album on Im not kidding

but I will also happily mix an album on 500 dollar speakers

If these could be poured fiber instead of wood, they could be WAY cheaper but the tooling is a killer right?

 

[Zep]

Use recycled popsicle sticks and a glue-gun??

 

[Schneibster]

Well, now.

Let me ask a few questions.

1. What material did you specify for the enclosures? Did you specify the same material all over, or use something different for the sides, the baffle, and the back? Did you specify a protective grille, and if so, of what material? Is it to be removable? How?
2. Are the enclosures rectangular, or some other shape? Do they have handles? What kind? Are there internal braces? What hardware did you specify to hold them together? How about corner guards? Wheels/casters/mounting hardware? If you specified glue, what kind?
3. Did you port? I.e., did you design with a bass reflex port? Are they internally baffled? If so, is it the same material as the front baffle or a different one? Did you put a damping material inside the enclosures? If so, what did you use? (Worth noting that it is common to omit damping and use baffling with a bass reflex port, whereas it's also common to omit baffling and use damping without one.)
4. What specific speakers (i.e., the cone/frame/surround/magnet/voice coil assembly) did you specify? If you used more than one speaker per enclosure, please list them all, make, model, diameter/dimensions, and throw/compliance (as appropriate to the type- for example, it's probably ridiculous to list the throw of an aluminum super tweeter, but the throw of even a 6-8" midrange is worth mentioning, as it can affect the porting equations).
5. How many enclosures in a set? Are all enclosures the same, or are some different from others (for example, did you design for a separate woofer/subwoofer cabinet, or use a smaller speaker for rear channels as is often done for 5.1 and 7.1 surround systems?)
6. What did you do about crossovers, if you used multiple different speakers per enclosure? What hardware did you specify for the signal connections? How about the internal wiring?
7. How much input wattage RMS continuous, and peak-to-peak continuous, did you spec these for?

With that, I might be able to make some reasonable suggestions- how to save money, potentially a lot. As far as whether it's ridiculous or not, it sounds a bit that way- but again, that might depend on some of the above choices. It would be possible to make high-end choices that would drive the price that high. Bear in mind as well, I've seen a lot of high-end studios with La Scalas- and a lot more with Centuries. I know engineers who have been reconing the woofers in those Centuries for twenty years, man- James Lansing knew what he was doing when he designed them. But then again, I have to admit that Klipsch knew a hell of a lot when they designed the La Scala too. From the mid- or low-end, I've seen a lot of Decades, and onward from there (I run Decades myself, with replaced woofers- and a set of old Fisher 3-way, 100W, 12"-woofer floorstanders- on the stereo I use in my home studio-like environment- it ain't a studio, but I do some work there.) So you might be re-inventing the wheel here. I wouldn't care to put my rad design skillz up against James B. Lansing's, and I know a HELL of a lot of electronics, acoustics, physics, and industrial design. The man was a genius, and I ain't.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Well, now.

Let me ask a few questions.

Cool, let me state right off the bat, that these are NOT intended for a mastering lab. The first real showing of these things were the drivers themselves (not my design, by any means) to George Augsperger who is my absolute favorite designer, but again I know rooms, not speakers. Still waiting judgement on the drivers actually

1. What material did you specify for the enclosures?

At first it was a high density phenolic/pressboard 80-120 pounds/cubic foot but its not made anymore so we had to switch to some MDF types

Did you specify the same material all over, or use something different for the sides, the baffle, and the back?

For the cabinets themselves, the material was the same, but in some places varying thicknesses ( if they were all the same I think we could save there)

Did you specify a protective grille, and if so, of what material? Is it to be removable? How?

No grill yet. These types usually throw them away religiously no matter what

2. Are the enclosures rectangular, or some other shape? Do they have handles? What kind? Are there internal braces? What hardware did you specify to hold them together? How about corner guards? Wheels/casters/mounting hardware? If you specified glue, what kind?

No they are not rectangular, and this is where almost all the cost came in. They couldnt just be cut on a table saw. We had to make jigs, and that cost a LOT. The time even with the jigs is stupid high. Also we havent figured out yet the best cuts to maximize the "wood" either so were scrapping a lot.

There are no handles

There are some braces though they are performing a function Im not sure Im allowed to talk about. I can say the braces are really expensive in the neighborhood of 300 dollars a cabinet

Hardware right now is Keenserts in the material and aviation style allen head screws (becuase the fastener shop has them CHEAP and they look cool ). Glue used was regular old liquid nails. Once we had the jigs we were able to cut clean enough to not require a sealer.

3. Did you port? I.e., did you design with a bass reflex port? Are they internally baffled? If so, is it the same material as the front baffle or a different one? Did you put a damping material inside the enclosures? If so, what did you use? (Worth noting that it is common to omit damping and use baffling with a bass reflex port, whereas it's also common to omit baffling and use damping without one.)

No ports. Not really internal baffles. Only thing in the business chamber of the cabs is 703/704 and 705

4. What specific speakers (i.e., the cone/frame/surround/magnet/voice coil assembly) did you specify? If you used more than one speaker per enclosure, please list them all, make, model, diameter/dimensions, and throw/compliance (as appropriate to the type- for example, it's probably ridiculous to list the throw of an aluminum super tweeter, but the throw of even a 6-8" midrange is worth mentioning, as it can affect the porting equations).

These are all underhung woofers, while not proprietary, noone else is using them yet. I need to look up these specs to make more sense for you, I dont have them off the top of my head. There are a few choices for the tweeters even including some 6 foot ribbons (dont kill me)

5. How many enclosures in a set? Are all enclosures the same, or are some different from others (for example, did you design for a separate woofer/subwoofer cabinet, or use a smaller speaker for rear channels as is often done for 5.1 and 7.1 surround systems?)

Four enclosures

Were working out the details for the surround systems

6. What did you do about crossovers, if you used multiple different speakers per enclosure? What hardware did you specify for the signal connections? How about the internal wiring?

Crossovers and correction are going to be in simple easily upgraded PC systems

7. How much input wattage RMS continuous, and peak-to-peak continuous, did you spec these for?

The driver maker claims unblowable but did give us an efficiency window. 800 watts RMS for the subs and lows, 500 for the mids and 300-600 watts for the tweeters depending on the type. Connectors are all standard 5 way binding posts. Once driver type per enclosure. Internal wiring is whatever we had around. We are using Perraux amps right now because we had piles lying around

So you might be re-inventing the wheel here. I wouldn't care to put my rad design skillz up against James B. Lansing's, and I know a HELL of a lot of electronics, acoustics, physics, and industrial design. The man was a genius, and I ain't.

Youd be surprised how many of these dudes absolutley HATE the old JBL style

Hopefully Im not reinventing someone else's style though.

 

[jimlintott]

Is it possible to be in this price range and not be total audiophoolery?

Yes, I believe it is. Now whether these speakers sound $20,000 better than $10,000 speakers would be a matter of opinion but not all really expensive audio gear is woo and this is particularly true in speakers. In your case it seems like it is very expensive to build these speakers if you can't find anyone to buy them then it's not worth it.

$500 power cable - woo.
Magic pebbles or faceplates or clocks - woo
Really good and therefore expensive speakers - not woo.
$3800 DVD player - not woo.

If someone says they spent $400 on speaker wire I'll laugh at them. If they say they have $30,000 speakers I'd want to see and hear them. They better sound good.

Have you built them and do they sound good?

Any pictures?

 

[pipelineaudio]

no pics yet. I have one set built, and they DO sound good. These with the conventional tweeters and not the ribbons. There was an area of mid bass I was aiming for, that I ALWAYS have trouble with in mixes. With these speakers the mid bass was built to easily hear, but it still isnt too muddy as you might think.

 

[luchog]

$3800 DVD player - not woo.

Yeah, but unless it's available in a region-free or multi-region version, I can't use it.

 

[Schneibster]

Well, looking this over, I don't think I'm gonna save you much. I do have some comments, but by and large they're just things to think about.

At first it was a high density phenolic/pressboard 80-120 pounds/cubic foot but its not made anymore so we had to switch to some MDF types

Lots of people use MDF; I've always been a little suspicious about its stability. But my really big kvetch with it is that it's difficult to use with screws- it has a tendency to crack. This doesn't appear to be an issue for you.

For the cabinets themselves, the material was the same, but in some places varying thicknesses ( if they were all the same I think we could save there)

Probably not a lot. It sounds like the woodwork is the big cost, not the wood itself.

No grill yet. These types usually throw them away religiously no matter what

Admittedly, you do get a certain amount of coloring, but I'm not so sure if it's a well-designed grille that it's humanly possible to notice the difference- but folks have to judge whether they are more interested in an amount of coloring that they might not be able to hear, or having to replace the speaker when someone puts something through the cone or voice coil.

No they are not rectangular, and this is where almost all the cost came in. They couldnt just be cut on a table saw. We had to make jigs, and that cost a LOT. The time even with the jigs is stupid high. Also we havent figured out yet the best cuts to maximize the "wood" either so were scrapping a lot.

Figuring those cuts out is somewhat important, but the time is almost certainly the major factor. I'm assuming you're using your knowledge of acoustics to design the enclosures to avoid resonances and ensure flat response (or anyway as flat as you can get from the transducers you're using). You might want to consider whether (if that's the case) it's worthwhile to avoid effects that are more than 9db below the driving sound- I suspect if you ignore anything below that, you'll get a much easier-to-build design. OTOH, if there's another reason for the shape, that might not be practical. If I were optimizing the design, that's what I'd probably pick as the point to attack, if I could.

There are some braces though they are performing a function Im not sure Im allowed to talk about. I can say the braces are really expensive in the neighborhood of 300 dollars a cabinet

Well, 300 simoleans ain't squat compared to 30 grand, yes?

No ports. Not really internal baffles. Only thing in the business chamber of the cabs is 703/704 and 705

I'm guessing you mean Owens/Corning fiberglas. That should be fine- but be sure to use plenty, if you're not porting. Also, I'll point out that if you're doing it this way, the intent of using damping material is specifically to try to avoid having to use a complex cabinet design to avoid resonance. The sound energy is dissipated in the material, not reflected back from the inside of the cabinet. Have you considered the possibility that you might not be using enough damping? Could you make the cabinets less complicated if you take this into account? It's another avenue of attack.

These are all underhung woofers, while not proprietary, noone else is using them yet. I need to look up these specs to make more sense for you, I dont have them off the top of my head.

Well, that depends how far you want to get into it... the exact specs aren't needed for a quick overview. My strategy here is more to point out areas I think it would be profitable for you to attack. I asked for as much detail as I thought was reasonable, because I wasn't sure precisely where I was going to find the best places to try to optimize the cost of the design. Are these specially expensive woofers, or fairly run-of-the-mill few-hundred-bucks stuff?

There are a few choices for the tweeters even including some 6 foot ribbons (dont kill me)

LOL

I think that's most of what's really worth talking about in terms of optimizing. HTH.

 

[Schneibster]

If someone says they spent $400 on speaker wire I'll laugh at them. If they say they have $30,000 speakers I'd want to see and hear them. They better sound good.

Yep.

 

[TjW]

Well, this will sound stupid, but what's worked for me:

Put the bill of materials in a spreadsheet. Sort on price. Look at the top ten or so items.

For small runs, CNC is your friend. If you already have jigs, that's not much help.

For small runs in fiberglass, you could use a variation on the "lost wax" process:

CNC a plug of the inside of the enclosure out of styrofoam. Glass it with a chopper gun. After the fiberglass cures, dissolve the plug with a solvent.
Polyester resin won't work for this, unfortunately, as it will dissolve polystyrene too.


If you

 

[pipelineaudio]

Well, looking this over, I don't think I'm gonna save you much. I do have some comments, but by and large they're just things to think about. Lots of people use MDF; I've always been a little suspicious about its stability. But my really big kvetch with it is that it's difficult to use with screws- it has a tendency to crack. .

You arent kidding!!!

The original REALLY hard stuff was fine. Drill it and screw it, ghood luck busting it with a hammer

This MDF on the other hand...YUK!!!! Cracks from looking at it

This is why we had to use the keenserts instead of just drilling and screwing.

If I could do moulded stuff like TjW said, man I would be happy, and really wouldnt it look a WHOLE lot nicer and be less hassle later one?

That stuff those line 6 amps are made of is light too. I wonder how they make those

 

[casebro]

I don't know from acoustics, but as a furnituremaker I know of a product called Medex. It is a heavier, harder, waterproof MDF. Think MDF with phenolic glue mixed in. Less likley to split with screws.

But from my association with musical instrument makers, I guess that the hard stuff bounces the sound, whereas the cheap particle board would probably dampen it. So, like violins and guitars that use different woods for different part's acoustic requirements, speaker enclosures ought to have differing materials in different places.

Does it make sense to use a hard surface, but glue the joints with a rubbery 'liquid nails'?

I'd think that a plaster plug, sculpted to shape, pull a fiberglass mold off it, spray differing composites of fibers/fillers/resins, could all be done basically in somebody's back yard. Like making a fiberglass boat. For a lot less than $30k.

There's polyester, vinyl, epoxy, and polyurethane resins. Glass, aramid, carbon, polyester, cotton, hemp, and nylon fibers. Saw dust, wood flour, plaster, microballons, walnut shells, and silica fillers. Just to name a few. That's 168 different simple combinations, without doing complex combos, or allowing for different durometers of the resins. It ougth to be able to make a "one step" speaker box. Or a modern "Plastic Stardivarius" (tm). I wonder if Yoyo Ma would play a plastic violin?

Too bad I don't care much about the quality of sound. My truck has Monophonic Vista Sound, with the optional 10 year old ripped speaker. I don't even own a stereo, except for the RCA tv. It's all audio-phraud-ophilia to me. Too bad I'm not even a phraudophiliac, or I could be a rich whore.