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A 330 Degree turn, and remote controlled flight.

Josh Redstone

Thinker
Joined
Aug 12, 2006
Messages
203
This is a big problem I have with the argument that it was a remote controlled aircraft which struck the pentagon. Even when you factor in that the black boxes were recovered, bodies identified, et cetera, there is one part of the argument which really stands out as crazy to me.

Some CTers I've talked with on other forums posit that Hanjour could not have made a 330 degree turn because his piloting skills were not that good, and because at that velocity and that angle, the plane should have stalled. They often site Russ Wittenburg on the latter;

Wittenburg said:
Flight 77 could not possibly have flown at those speeds which they said it did without going into a high speed stall.

However, the argument that the plane had to be remote controlled to account for the turn doesn't stand up. The plane obviously didn't go into a stall, but if it hand it would have been because physical factors like velocity of the aircraft and mass of the aircraft, flying conditions, and so on. Regardless of whether Hanjour flew the plane (which I firmly believe he did) or if it was remote controlled, it is still subject the the same physical factors which could have knocked the plane into a stall.

Please discuss :)
 
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This is my pennies worth. It seems an illogical argument to me. Accepting that the plane did this turn but it could not have been flown by an inexperienced pilot to do it. So the answer is it was remotely controlled. I would have thought that it would have been far more difficult to remotely control a plane through this type of manoeuvre than to actually have pilot there, all be it he was inexperienced. Remotely controlling the plane through this turn simply does not give the operator any visual feedback from the cockpit at all. Whereby a pilot doing this dangerous manoeuvre is getting visual feedback from his surroundings, all the time.

Physical feedback to a human being, who can make quick decisions and minor alterations, is far more plausible than somebody remotely controlling it, out of sight presumably.

But hey I’m no pilot.
 
this has come up before, the concensus was that it is much more difficult to fly planes remotely that actually being in the cockpit

a record of unmanned drones crashed due to pilot error is good evidence of this
 
this has come up before, the concensus was that it is much more difficult to fly planes remotely that actually being in the cockpit

I agree, and I guess that's a point I should have mentioned.
Regardless, as Gravy said, the plane didn't stall, so whether it was remote controlled is irrelevant as far as this turn goes, which brings us to Occam's Razor; we've got the bodies and black boxes and wreckage, and we know what actually happened, so there isn't much point in using the remote control argument...so why do CTers use it?
 
I agree, and I guess that's a point I should have mentioned.
Regardless, as Gravy said, the plane didn't stall, so whether it was remote controlled is irrelevant as far as this turn goes, which brings us to Occam's Razor; we've got the bodies and black boxes and wreckage, and we know what actually happened, so there isn't much point in using the remote control argument...so why do CTers use it?
This was a much easier argument for the CTs to make before the gov't released the FDR data a few months ago. All the data are consistent with what a 757 is capable of and with the idea that a relatively unskilled pilot was at the controls all the way in. Now, the CTs are reduced to saying that the FDR data were faked, which is what some of them will still be saying 20 years from now.
 
Now, the CTs are reduced to saying that the FDR data were faked, which is what some of them will still be saying 20 years from now.

Which would probably be nearly impossible to prove even if it were true....huh, it makes you wonder if CTs realize how damaging this intentional ignorance of evidence is to what little credibility they have :rolleyes:
 
I haven't seen this particular CT argument made since we got the FDR data a couple of months ago. In fact, I was in a discussion with JDX over at the LC Forum, and I got him to draw out what he thought this 330-degree turn would look like, as a path overlaid on an aerial photo. He drew a line from the west, then a tiny little loop about 1/4 mile across, coming out of that turn towards the Pentagon. It was the dumbest thing I ever saw - he actually thought that the "official story" was that Flight 77 made a 400-500 mph turn, almost in a circle, with a radius of about 1/4 mile. I told him no f'in wonder he thought that was impossible!

Shortly after that, we got the FDR data and he merrily went off down another dead-end path.
 
That map JDX drew was an internet classic. I measured the turn radius at about 300 yards, iirc.
 
If this thing really was an inside job and the planes were flown by remote control, you'd think they would have planned the route so that they wouldn't have been forced to make difficult manuevers. Maybe the guys operating the remote controls wanted to show off how good they were?
 
If this thing really was an inside job and the planes were flown by remote control, you'd think they would have planned the route so that they wouldn't have been forced to make difficult manuevers. Maybe the guys operating the remote controls wanted to show off how good they were?
They had to make the plane's movements erratic and obvious to distract from the fact that, as JDX says, the Pentagon was bombed with a MOAB from another plane.
 
However, the argument that the plane had to be remote controlled to account for the turn doesn't stand up. The plane obviously didn't go into a stall, but if it hand it would have been because physical factors like velocity of the aircraft and mass of the aircraft, flying conditions, and so on. Regardless of whether Hanjour flew the plane (which I firmly believe he did) or if it was remote controlled, it is still subject the the same physical factors which could have knocked the plane into a stall.
Hi Josh, your intuition is correct. Furthermore, the flight path suggests that it was not under automatic or remote control, as I will explain.

First, some background. I feel well qualified to answer this question. I work autonomy projects for NASA in real life (references available upon request), and I've led autonomous UAV efforts, though nothing that's actually piloted a plane yet. If that's not good enough for you, a member of my group left this year to go work Global Hawk, and I can forward any questions to him if needed...

Second, let me state up front that the technology does exist to remotely or automatically pilot a jetliner into the Pentagon, with a high degree of reliability. It is theoretically possible. It is also theoretically possible for someone to have planted 2,000,000 pounds of explosives in the WTC towers... While theoretically possible, it would be enormously difficult to have piloted Flight 77 remotely or automatically.

Third, as you say, remote guidance of the aircraft would not have improved its flying characteristics or performance. Quite the opposite, in fact. An autonomous aircraft control system will stay away from the limits of performance whenever possible, simply because the autonomous control system may not be stable there -- it may not react quickly enough, may accidentally overshoot, or it may have never encountered those conditions and behave unpredictably. Similarly, a remotely controlled aircraft will avoid challenging flight regimes because the pilot suffers additional delay, and cannot completely sense what his aircraft is doing.

Think of it this way: Suppose you're driving your car. Blindfolded. Suppose a friend is in the passenger seat, telling you what to do. Would you rather drive on a flat, open parking lot, or drive along the edge of a cliff? Pretty simple decision.

Fourth, the 330 or 270 or whatever degree diving turn itself is consistent with a pilot scanning for visible landmarks and suddenly spotting his target, and not consistent with remote or autonomous systems. A pilot running remotely would not have the same visual acuity, -- looking through a camera, say -- and would absolutely have to be using other sensors (GPS, terrain-following radar, etc.) in which case he'd have the Pentagon pretty clearly marked. There would be no need for a sudden correction like that. He'd have a better flight plan from the beginning.

An autonomous system likewise would not rely upon visual landmarks. You could build an autonomous system that simply went after the Pentagon based on GPS coordinates, but this would be risky -- GPS alone does not give terribly accurate height information and the odds of clipping much more than lightpoles would be significant, not to mention you could lose GPS signal for a variety of reasons. Global Hawk, to pick one, doesn't rely on GPS for height information to land; instead, it overflies the landing strip, images and ranges it with synthetic aperture radar, then comes back and lands according to its updated measurements. Flight 77 didn't have a radar of that caliber and mounting one would be prohibitively difficult. If I wanted to try an autonomous approach, I would supplement GPS with a directional marker, perhaps an infrared laser designator trained on the Pentagon, or a coded IR beacon on the roof. The aircraft would need an additional sensor to pick this up, but it would be relatively small and could be set upon the "dashboard."

Still, in this case, there is no reason for the aircraft to execute such a big turn. Again, the turn itself indicates a sudden change in direction based on suddenly acquiring new information. No autonomous or remote system would have suddenly woken up in this fashion.

From the FDR data we saw while discussing John Doe X / Robert / weedwacker's flawed analysis, the aircraft also recorded significant last-second corrections all the way up to impact. Again, this is consistent with a pilot on board navigating by sight. It is not consistent with any automatic or remote system. If done remotely, the remote operator would have run a real risk of entering PIO (Pilot Induced Oscillation), probably crashing the plane short of its mark, and thus would have made more gentle corrections to a smoother course set further out. If an on-board autonomous system provided these control inputs, its control laws are awful and it's a wonder if it could work at all -- we should see a fairly continuous curve.

Fifth, I suppose one might argue "of course they made it turn funny, to make you believe it was an amateur pilot." This is, of course, impossible to disprove. However, those "deceptive" maneuvers would add a great deal of unnecessary risk if the plane was remotely or robotically operated. I can't envision some shadowy group going to all that trouble, making a trick aircraft to pull off the biggest deception since New Coke, and then taking a chance like that rather than just flying it properly. Makes no sense at all.

So in conclusion, not only are you correct that the flight performance issues would apply to a remotely guided plane as well, but in fact they are even more significant, and additionally the flight path is not consistent with any remote or robotic control paradigm I've ever heard of.

And I would know. I was meeting with other scientists at Boeing Commercial in Everett, Washington when Flight 77 hit. Later that evening, we considered pitching the idea of an automated on-board failsafe pilot, activated by code from Air Traffic Control, to take over in case a flight was ever highjacked again, to the government (probably DARPA). We never did, though. Real pilots would object, and besides, soon after air travel took a big hit, and Boeing's willingness to fund new technology understandably waned for some time. We could do it. But nobody has.
 
According to a few 9/11 Truth sites, the planes made impossible turns according to software limits.

IMO, the remote control theory is just another absurd theory.
 
According to a few 9/11 Truth sites, the planes made impossible turns according to software limits.

IMO, the remote control theory is just another absurd theory.

Right on. I mean, wouldn't software limits prevent impossible stuff? I don't know a lot about programming and it isn't really that important, but that seems weird to me.
 
The remote control theory is just another way for the Truth Movement to say that there were no hijackers.
 
Right on. I mean, wouldn't software limits prevent impossible stuff? I don't know a lot about programming and it isn't really that important, but that seems weird to me.

Its not weird when you consider the fact that Boeings have no software limits. :)
 
TellyKNeasuss said:
If this thing really was an inside job and the planes were flown by remote control, you'd think they would have planned the route so that they wouldn't have been forced to make difficult manuevers. Maybe the guys operating the remote controls wanted to show off how good they were?

They had to make the plane's movements erratic and obvious to distract from the fact that, as JDX says, the Pentagon was bombed with a MOAB from another plane.

Its this kind of stupid leap from Alice in Wonderland that makes me slap my head. Why do these people consistantly think of something stupid, then alter common sense to fit the stupid, then claim we are the idiots!

uhhhh!!!! I need to take a shower to wash away the stupid.
 
Its not weird when you consider the fact that Boeings have no software limits. :)

Right. (see, I told you guys I had no clue when it comes to this stuff :p )
Regardless, I think it all comes down to the physical/environmental factors I mentioned before; whether a pilot or a computer is flying the plane doesn't matter, neither one can perform impossible maneuvers. Therefore, the turn wasn't impossible. Simple as that.
 

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