Russian rocket deliveries to Iran started

[Darth Rotor]

Why would Iran need to ward off an air attack?

In the last six months, if you bother to read the US press, there are a lot of policy wonks, and others in government, who don't rule that out: an air attack on Iran. You will also note in the past 6 months not a few talking heads in Israel making similar comments.

Like Mahmoud, I consider it all a load of political hot air.

Hmmm because they may be attacked in realtion to what? Their nuclear program. Russia and China see fit to still arm Iran so they get access to oil. Russia and CHina arm Iran for oil while Israel is worried Iran will follow through on it threats. Should we be worried a war might break out?

OK, so, let's attack:
India
Pakistan
Israel
UK
France
North Korea

For their Nuclear Weapons Program. Better yet, just attack Israel and Pakistan, as they did not sign the NPT did stealth Nuclear Programs, and hit them about the same day we bomb Iran for theirs.

DR

 

[Darth Rotor]

Naivete didn't help Neville Chamberlain either. I feel you both utterly misjudge Ahmadinejad. The similarities are there.

So were Saddam's "similarities," trumpeted about by certain wordsmiths. Saddam's motives and methods were, were, for the record, more Stalinist than Hitlerite. A different flavor was Pappa Doc Duvalier. Another flavor of arsehole was named Pinochet. None of these guys was Hitler, they were arseholes of their own style.

But oddly enough, Hitler is the immediate "go to arsehole of the week" symbol for anyone a Jew wants to demonize, Sabra. Your Koresh argument made more sense, and was a far more stimulating analogy. "Nutcase with nukes" strikes me as a far more real problem than Adolf reincarnated. So, tell me how Iran nukes Israel without killing about a million or so Arab Muslims? Work with me here.

I've read quite a bit of Mahmoud's rhetoric, albeit translated into English. He is playing to the home crowd, and a selected audience in the Muslim world. He's not the only guy with a case of the ass over Israel. He's also not the only politician who uses blunt, startling speech to grab headlines so the rest of his message gets across.

I note that the IDF is developoing a BMD system, similar to the US program. IMO, that is a brilliant move. It is better than running about and crying "wolf" everytime someone in the Muslim world talks trash about Israel.

I recall an infamous UN resolution, "Zionism = Racism." Pure anti-Israeli, anti-Jew trash talk. The trash talking about Israel is a tired wheeze, as tired as the Hitler references are becoming.

To Ahmadinejad Israel is the "little Satan", a small piece of America, America is the "Big satan".

Yes indeed, the "Jew-Crusader" sound byte is also Old News. What does that have to do with the sale of Air Defense Missiles, which are aimed at countering US adventurism in the Persian Gulf?

Funny, you have yet to answer the mail on that.

DR

 

[Huntster]

....Too bad for the neocons that Iraq2 turned out so disasterously, otherwise the neocons would be marching right now on Tehran.....

Huh?

Please describe the "disaster."

If you're referring to the political hullaballo, I'd say that it has been a huge factor in the occupation, and that the disasterous effects have yet to manifest themselves (but will soon).

I'm curious how you define "disaster."

 

[Huntster]

In the last six months, if you bother to read the US press, there are a lot of policy wonks, and others in government, who don't rule that out: an air attack on Iran. You will also note in the past 6 months not a few talking heads in Israel making similar comments.

Like Mahmoud, I consider it all a load of political hot air.....

Forgotten Osirak so soon?

 

[Huntster]

.....So, tell me how Iran nukes Israel without killing about a million or so Arab Muslims?....

Who says Iranians would give much of a damn about a million or so Palestinians?

Iranians are Persians, not Arabs. The growing civil war in Iraq between Sunnis and Shiites illustrates that quite well.

I note that the IDF is developoing a BMD system, similar to the US program. IMO, that is a brilliant move.

As it was for the U.S. to do so.

 

[Gurdur]

Please describe the "disaster."

There are quite a few threads on Iraq2 already, and the situation there has even been described to you personally in posts on other threads, so go back and read them. Or just pay attention to the news. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh.
And more sheeeeesh; how come you haven't answered all those other posts regarding the Iraq2 mess? It's immaterial to me if you want to live in cloud-cuckoo land; even Prime Minster Blair of the UK has admitted specifically that it is a "disaster". It's even lost the Republicans the Congressional elections --- notice that?

If you're referring to the political hullaballo

Nope

I'm curious how you define "disaster."

The usual way, with a rational and calm assessment.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
Please describe the "disaster."

There are quite a few threads on Iraq2 already, and the situation there has even been described to you personally in posts on other threads, so go back and read them. Or just pay attention to the news. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh.

From your link:

DEATHS SINCE MAR 2003
Iraqi civilians: Estimates from 47,000 (Iraq Body Count) and 655,000 (Lancet, 2006)
Iraqi security forces*: 5,556
US military: 2,812
UK military: 120
Other coalition military: 119
Journalists: 77

Not to make light of the situation, but when compared to some 800,000 dead in Rwanda in 100 days in 1994, this isn't overwhelming...........yet.

Nor is the Iraqi infrastructure completely destroyed like in Europe in 1945.

What we have is classic sectarian violence, and it is being fed by untouchables across borders.

And more sheeeeesh; how come you haven't answered all those other posts regarding the Iraq2 mess?

What posts?

It's immaterial to me if you want to live in cloud-cuckoo land;

No clouds here. It's clear and damned cold, and the cuckoo birds have migrated south.

even Prime Minster Blair of the UK has admitted specifically that it is a "disaster".

Linky, please?

Quote:
If you're referring to the political hullaballo

Nope

Yeah. I'd imagine you'd like to avoid that discussion.

Quote:
I'm curious how you define "disaster."

The usual way, with a rational assessment.

Try to inject some balance in that assessment.

 

[Gurdur]

Not to make light of the situation, but when compared to some 800,000 dead in Rwanda in 100 days in 1994, this isn't overwhelming...........yet.

And compared with A GIANT ASTERIOD wiping out 99% of life on Earth, it's nothing. Oh wow, so what?
What a cruddy and evasive argument of yours.
The fact that it is a disaster is not disproven by there being bigger disasters; deal with it.

Nor is the Iraqi infrastructure completely destroyed like in Europe in 1945.

Nor is all life wiped out not even leaving bacteria.
Oh dear, what a silly and tiresomely evasive argument of yours. Deal with the point.

Linky, please?

Since I gave you a direct link to his own words in my post, go back and deal with it

...I'ld imagine....

You imagine far too much. Going to quote the Gospel of Matthew at me again?

...balance....

*snicker*

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
Not to make light of the situation, but when compared to some 800,000 dead in Rwanda in 100 days in 1994, this isn't overwhelming...........yet.

And compared with A GIANT ASTERIOD wiping out 99% of life on Earth, it's nothing. Oh wow, so what?
What a cruddy and evasive argument of yours.
The fact that it is a disaster is not disproven by there being bigger disasters; deal with it.

And the fact that it's a devolving situation, if we continue to play political games, it may very well turn into a big disaster.

And I am dealing with it.

You?

Quote:
....Going to quote the Gospel of Matthew at me again?

Sure:

Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'If one swears by the temple, it means nothing, but if one swears by the gold of the temple, one is obligated.' Blind fools, which is greater, the gold, or the temple that made the gold sacred?

 

[Gurdur]

...it may very well turn into a big disaster.

It's one already. Blair has admitted it, the USA military more than hint at it, Rumsfeld had to resign in disgrace because of it, Blair has admitted it overtly, the British military admit it.

Who are you again?

Sure:

Goodness, so you want to quote Scripture at me.

I have some for you!

Isaiah 42:18
Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see


And since you seem boastful of the USA, and xenophobic, here too:
Psalm 49:20
Man in his pomp yet without understanding is like the beasts that perish.
Isaiah 13:11
...I will put an end to the pomp of the arrogant, and lay low the pompous pride of the ruthless.

and of course a quote from Kipling:
All your pomp and glory shall be one with Ninevah and Tyre

and
Isaiah 14:11
Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, the sound of your harps; maggots are laid as a bed beneath you, and worms are your covers.

 

[Huntster]

...Who are you again?

The Huntster.

Goodness, so you want to quote Scripture at me.

You asked.

I have some for you!

Isaiah 42:18
Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see

For some context, here is the rest of the chapter (verses 18-25):

You who are deaf, listen, you who are blind, look and see! Who is blind but my servant, or deaf like the messenger I send? You see many things without taking note; your ears are open, but without hearing. Though it pleased the LORD in his justice to make his law great and glorious, This is a people despoiled and plundered, all of them trapped in holes, hidden away in prisons. They are taken as booty, with no one to rescue them, as spoil, with no one to demand their return. Who of you gives ear to this? Who listens and pays heed for the time to come? Who was it that gave Jacob to be plundered, Israel to the despoilers? Was it not the LORD, against whom we have sinned? In his ways they refused to walk, his law they disobeyed. So he poured out wrath upon them, his anger, and the fury of battle; It blazed round about them, yet they did not realize, it burned them, but they took it not to heart.

And since you seem boastful of the USA, and xenophobic, here too:
Psalm 49:20
Man in his pomp yet without understanding is like the beasts that perish.

More context:

But God will redeem my life, will take me from the power of Sheol. Selah Do not fear when others become rich, when the wealth of their houses grows great. When they die they will take nothing with them, their wealth will not follow them down. When living, they congratulate themselves and say: "All praise you, you do so well." But they will join the company of their forebears, never again to see the light. For all their riches, if mortals do not have wisdom, they perish like the beasts.

Isaiah 13:11
...I will put an end to the pomp of the arrogant, and lay low the pompous pride of the ruthless.

More:

Lo, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and burning anger; To lay waste the land and destroy the sinners within it! The stars and constellations of the heavens send forth no light; The sun is dark when it rises, and the light of the moon does not shine. Thus I will punish the world for its evil and the wicked for their guilt. I will put an end to the pride of the arrogant, the insolence of tyrants I will humble.

Now, that was a fun and neat exercise, but it has nothing to do with political activities affecting the outcome of armed struggle.

The U.S. military invaded and toppled Saddam's regime, killed his sons in armed battle, captured Saddam, turned him over to the Iraqi government for trial, saw a fair election there, and now the Shiite government who has taken control is allowing Shiite militias to run rampant.

And people like yourself seem to bask in it as if you have won some sort of victory.

 

[Gurdur]

The Huntster.

IOW, you are a nobody. You're not involved in it, you only pay the taxes supporting it. Other people who are actually involved in it call it what it is --- a disaster. You wish to deny it, but your opinion is just not important, is it now? At all.

The U.S. military invaded and toppled Saddam's regime

and the USA Bush admin totally stuffed up the occupation, leading to the present disaster.
Something you are desperate to evade. Tough luck.

And people like yourself seem to bask in it as if you have won some sort of victory.

I despise people who habitually throw around false accusations; that happens to be a false accusation of yours, like others of yours.

Your vacuous cheerleading is only that; other people have to deal with the situation as it really is.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
The Huntster.

IOW, you are a nobody.

As far as you're concerned, that's right. Virtually nameless. Just another voice crying out from the wilderness.

You're not involved in it, you only pay the taxes supporting it.

Nope. I'm involved indirectly now, and deployable.

Other people who are actually involved in it call it what it is --- a disaster.

I say it's a political disaster, and we got into it militarily because of a series of intelligence disasters.

You wish to deny it, but your opinion is just not important, is it now? At all.

That's right. My opinion is meaningless.

Just like yours.

Quote:
The U.S. military invaded and toppled Saddam's regime

and the USA Bush admin totally stuffed up the occupation, leading to the present disaster.
Something you are desperate to evade. Tough luck.

The administration's stated goal up front were the capture of Saddam and his gang, the capture of all WMDs, and democratic elections. They've all occurred.

Now the Shiites are screwing it up, and you're loving it.

Quote:
And people like yourself seem to bask in it as if you have won some sort of victory.

I despise people who habitually throw around false accusations; that happens to be a false accusation of yours, like others of yours.

Such as?

Your vacuous cheerleading is only that; other people have to deal with the situation as it really is.

I'm involved.

 

[firecoins]

I despise people who habitually throw around false accusations; that happens to be a false accusation of yours, like others of yours.

Since you have accussed me not caring about poor people, does this mean you hate yourself?

 

[firecoins]

Mabe they took all the recent threats of the USA neocons for a "regime change by force" in Iran seriously?

Too bad for the neocons that Iraq2 turned out so disasterously, otherwise the neocons would be marching right now on Tehran.

Do you have any idea of how many times the USA and UK have intervened in Iran within the last 60 years? Do you think the Iranians forget that just to be a convenient target for more such adventurism?

The US, UK and Israel would not be all worried about Iran's nuclear program at all. No need for concern considering Iran's threats. Of course not. No chance Iran may start a war themselves.

 

[zenith-nadir]

So were Saddam's "similarities," trumpeted about by certain wordsmiths. DR

Irrelevant conclusion. Just because the UN and just about every intelligence agency in the world was wrong about Saddam doesn't also make everyone wrong about Ahmadinejad.

But oddly enough, Hitler is the immediate "go to arsehole of the week" symbol for anyone a Jew wants to demonize, Sabra. DR

"Hitler is the goto guy for jews, therefore if a jew says it it must be false..." Argumentum ad hominem.

I didn't say Ahmadinejad was Hitler. I said Ahmadinejad was telegraphing his intentions like Hitler telegraphed his intentions in Mein Kampf. In a striking similarity Mein Kampf means "my struggle" and Jihad can also mean [SIZE=-1]"struggle."[/SIZE]

Your Koresh argument made more sense, and was a far more stimulating analogy. "Nutcase with nukes" strikes me as a far more real problem than Adolf reincarnated. DR

Once again, I didn't say Ahmadinejad was Hitler. I said Ahmadinejad was telegraphing his intentions like Hitler telegraphed his intentions in Mein Kampf.

So, tell me how Iran nukes Israel without killing about a million or so Arab Muslims? Work with me here. DR

Iran doesn't have to nuke Israel. You are thinking in terms of deterrable powers. Militant Islam is suicidal and puts zealotry and ideology above survival. Iran can hand the bomb off to Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hizbollah and let one of their suicide troops run it into the endzone. When Hizbollah fired it's rockets at Israel it killed muslim-Israelis, when Palestinian suicide bombers strike a restaurant/bus/market that also kills muslim-Israelis, when suni and shiite bombers strike in Iraq it kills muslim-Iraqis.

This belief that Iran, or it's subordinates, could never ever possibly kill other muslim is a fantasy.

I've read quite a bit of Mahmoud's rhetoric, albeit translated into English. He is playing to the home crowd, and a selected audience in the Muslim world. DR

Yes. A "home crowd" that has millions of followers who believe in the Apocalypse.

He's not the only guy with a case of the ass over Israel. He's also not the only politician who uses blunt, startling speech to grab headlines so the rest of his message gets across. DR

But he is the only one who, (see the multiple links in post #5), believes in the Apocalypse.

I note that the IDF is developoing a BMD system, similar to the US program. IMO, that is a brilliant move. It is better than running about and crying "wolf" everytime someone in the Muslim world talks trash about Israel. DR

Once again Argumentum ad hominem.

I recall an infamous UN resolution, "Zionism = Racism." Pure anti-Israeli, anti-Jew trash talk. The trash talking about Israel is a tired wheeze, as tired as the Hitler references are becoming. DR

Irrelevant conclusion.

Yes indeed, the "Jew-Crusader" sound byte is also Old News. What does that have to do with the sale of Air Defense Missiles, which are aimed at countering US adventurism in the Persian Gulf?

Funny, you have yet to answer the mail on that.

DR

The question you asked in post #4 was:

"How are Russian Air Defense systems being sold to Iran a more sinister development than US Air Defense systems sold to Japan or South Korea?"

In post #5 I did answer that question directly. Immediately after you asked it. The answer was:

"Well, for one thing, Japan and South Korea aren't gearing up for the apocalypse."

 

[Darth Rotor]

This belief that Iran, or it's subordinates, could never ever possibly kill other muslim is a fantasy.

Not the point I am making. The political problem for Iran, in a nuclear attack on Israel, is the very real problem to deal with in the aftermath, at the political level: how to answer up to the Arab World for the slaughter, by the tens of thousands, of Arabs in the Holy Land. That Iran, and Iranians, don't mind killing an Arab here and there isn't the issue, given their agenda in supporting Shia Arabs, generally, over Shunnah and others. (The issues in Lebanon and Iraq leap to mind.) On that order of magnitude, Iran's profile is low, as a catalyst to existing animosities. The wholesale destruction, of both sites and persons en masse in the Holy Land is a problem on a scale that can't, and won't be, ignored by Irans rivals in the Muslim world.

Your non sequitur is cast aside for the trash that it is.

The question you asked in post #4 was:

"How are Russian Air Defense systems being sold to Iran a more sinister development than US Air Defense systems sold to Japan or South Korea?"

In post #5 I did answer that question directly. Immediately after you asked it. The answer was:

"Well, for one thing, Japan and South Korea aren't gearing up for the apocalypse."[/QUOTE]
Your answer does not address the question. Air Defense as a deterrent to attack in Iran is a valid defensive security concern for Iran, whoever is in power. (I'll pass on my judgment concerning how easily US EW efforts can or will defeat the Iranian IAD network, as it would lead to a bit of a derail.)

This is a far different matter, for regional stability (IMO it enhances it due to whatever deterrent effect it offers) that offensive missiles, and the potential development of nuclear weapons.

DR

 

[zenith-nadir]

Not the point I am making. The political problem for Iran, in a nuclear attack on Israel, is the very real problem to deal with in the aftermath, at the political level: how to answer up to the Arab World for the slaughter, by the tens of thousands, of Arabs in the Holy Land. DR

You are still thinking in terms of deterrable powers. Iran doesn't have to do anything. They have plenty of folks to do it for them.

The Council on Foreign Relations:

Q: Does Iran sponsor terrorism?
A: Yes. The U.S. State Department has called Iran the world’s “most active state sponsor of terrorism.”

The US had suitcase nukes in the early 60's, (the W54). So the technology is nearly 40 years old. It is very possible, given time and motive, that a small nuclear device could eventually be delivered off the coast of Tel Aviv or Haifa. Or maybe it comes in a container full of goods on a truck. Who knows? The yield of such a device can be around 1 kiloton of TNT, cite . Muslims in Gaza or the West Bank would not be wiped out, but that sure would make a huge hole in Tel Aviv or Haifa though.

So the logic that Iran would never do such a thing, "the slaughter, by the tens of thousands, of Arabs in the Holy Land", is removed. Because there would be no slaughter of tens of thousands of Arabs, just thousands of Israelis living in Tel Aviv or Haifa.

Then, when the spotlight is turned on Iran, they go "Who us? We didn't do it." And they don't have to, there are plenty of folks in Hizbollah, Hamas or Islamic Jihad that would just love to do it. Plausible deniability.

Your non sequitur is cast aside for the trash that it is. DR

Seems like my entire argument is cast aside "for the trash that it is"

It's puzzling because you are so dead-set against even entertaining the thought. Eventhough I have cited that:

• Ahmadinejad describes himself as a fundamentalist who believes in the [SIZE=-1]apocalypse[/SIZE],
• Many others describe Ahmadinejad as a fundamentalist who believes in the [SIZE=-1]apocalypse[/SIZE],
• Ahmadinejad calls for the destruction of Israel,
• Ahmadinejad calls the holocaust a myth,
• Ahmadinejad and the Iranian government sponsor Hizbollah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad,
• Ahmadinejad and the Iranian government are about to go nuclear.

Whereas your argument is based upon your gut feeling that Ahmadinejad is just full of hot air and playing to the crowd.

This is a far different matter, for regional stability (IMO it enhances it due to whatever deterrent effect it offers) that offensive missiles, and the potential development of nuclear weapons.DR

I don't think anyone should be selling arms to Iran at this time. The past few pages of this thread lay out why I think that, including citations.

 

[Huntster]

....Just because the UN and just about every intelligence agency in the world was wrong about Saddam doesn't also make everyone wrong about Ahmadinejad.

Thanks for that reminder to all regarding western intelligence failures. You're right, our intelligence may be correct regarding Ahmadinejad, but with the intel failures of the recent past, I restate my utmost concern regarding the intelligence our civilian leadership is getting.

 

[Huntster]

.... The US had suitcase nukes in the early 60's, (the W54). So the technology is nearly 40 years old. It is very possible, given time and motive, that a small nuclear device could eventually be delivered off the coast of Tel Aviv or Haifa. Or maybe it comes in a container full of goods on a truck. Who knows? The yield of such a device can be around 1 kiloton of TNT, cite . Muslims in Gaza or the West Bank would not be wiped out, but that sure would make a huge hole in Tel Aviv or Haifa though......

More importantly, the Soviets had it, too. The Soviet NBC weapon drawdown illustrated the worrisome WMD inventory control that the Soviets suffered.

Considering Russia's current problem with organized crime, Russia's current relationship with Tehran, Iran's propensity to employ terrorists, and western intelligence's poor performance overall recently as well as it's specific performance regarding non-state entities, I would think many more folks would be extremely concerned with terrorism involving WMDs.