Stundie's "people who don't buy the official theory" thread

[Anti-sophist]

Just to recap. You asked questions, you got answers.

The vast preponderance of evidence is that flight 77 hit the Pentagon.
A few places to get you started:
http://www.911myths.com/html/757_wreckage.html
http://internetdetectives.biz/case/loose-change-2
http://www.loosechangeguide.com/lcg2.html

By the way, there are a few pilots here. There are also a few clever people here with aeronautical experience and experience with data recording analysis who can calculate G forces and such. They, the NTSB, and the vast majority of the piloting and aeronautical engineering community agree that Hanjour's maneuvers were nothing special and well within the range of the aircraft's capabilities. Wittenberg is a crackpot.


http://www.911myths.com/html/no_hija...manifests.html
http://www.911myths.com/html/officia...st_images.html

Scanned images of the passenger lists can be found in a ZIP file here:
http://www.911myths.com/html/the_passengers.html
Here's the first page from flight 11, for example:
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g7...1Manifesta.jpg

The passengers lists do contain the hijackers' names:
http://www.911myths.com/html/flight_77_passengers.html
http://www.911myths.com/911_Manifests.zip

The autopsy list Olmsted requested of flight 77 does not contain the hijackers because they were not positively identified through their DNA but through process of elimination:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in519033.shtml

Also, at least three of the hijackers that flew their planes in the WTC were positively identified through their DNA:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2808599.stm
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/sto...p-302463c.html

Originally Posted by maccy
Some links about molten metal:

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_molten_steel.html
http://www.lolinfowars.co.nr/ (pg 26)
http://www.jnani.org/mrking/writings...#_Toc144445988
http://www.loosechangeguide.com/lcg3.html (timestamp 51:11)
http://internetdetectives.biz/case/l...3#molten-steel
http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...42.html?page=4

Also a couple of threads here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65353
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63886

and a bonus thread on sulfur

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58851
I think it would be better if you tried to stay on one topic for a bit before moving to others.

I suppose the main question about thermite/thermate is why would anybody use an incendiary to demolish a building?

The auxiliary question is: how do you get thermite/thermate to cut through a steel beam anyway? Once the reaction is started, the thermite/thermate will move downwards, not sideways.

Anyway, some more thermite/themate resources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermate
http://www.ilpi.com/genchem/demo/thermite/index.html

Some relevant threads here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67737
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66140
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65247
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64843
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58851
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61469

Heh.

 

[Anti-sophist]

Your argument is he is a CTer!! Oh well we had better dismiss him?

So what has him being a CTer got to do with the names missing from names from the flight list obtained under the FOIA??

Talk about clutching at straws!!

I'm sorry, but didn't you use the -exact- same logic when you claimed the other list was from a "debunking website"

So what does it being a debunking website got to do with the names NOT missing from the flight list?

Talk about clutching at straws!!

 

[Belz...]

No, I stand corrected. Jet Fuel (Kersone) from the plane and office equipment, plastics, debris etc can bring massive benefits to the energy industry as it kept those fire burning.

You've never actually SEEN a fire, have you ?

One thing, if the combustible or maximum tempreture of all these things cannot melt steel. How the hell did it get to those tempratures.

You're assuming that a well-fueled fire underground cannot reach high temperatures ? It can. Also, do you have any evidence that the "melted" metal was steel ?

Here is Thermite in action, Thermate is a more powerful substance!

That says nothing about whether it can continue to burn for weeks, whichi it can't.

Oh like some one else said, it was underground and because thermate burns at about 5000 Degrees (I'm just estimating and cant rememeber the figure of my head) it would keep hot for months. Would it not?

No, no it wouldn't.

 

[chipmunk stew]

Passenger lists...I was talking about Flight 77 which had no arab names on it under the FOIA. Sorry if I was not specific. http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article_tro.htm

Also PM (Debunking 9/11; States that they had the DNA of the Terrorists.) I can't remember the page, but here is a radio show with PM in which they are asked how did the FBI have there DNA, which again disputes your claim.

http://jonhs.net/911/popular_mechanics_charles_goyette.htm

I'm not saying you are wrong, but the misinformation seems to be spreading and this is why a proper investigation is needed.

The comparison DNA was recovered from hotel rooms, rental cars, and homes used by the terrorists.

Most of the misinformation is being spread by people who doubt the official, evidence-based account. Steven Jones and the other Scholars, Alex Jones, the LTW crew, freelancers like Killtown and Christopher Bollyn are all notorious for their misinformation.

The point of the thread was the running theme in here is if you do not believe the official story, your a nutjob. I didn't start the thread but my original post was to show that it's not just crackpots who believe the stories, neither am I here to prove or disprove what they have said.

The running theme is that if you don't believe the official, evidence-based account, you're probably wrong. It just so happens that many of the people who fall into that category and bother posting here are also nutjobs.

I'm sure there are plenty of people in here who are qualified and can debunk theories, but I've failed to see anything substantiated yet. Infact Gravys (Who seems to be a champion of the offical story!) posts have been nothing but misinformation, not sure if it's intentional or he his misinformed. (He tolds me Cheney arrived at PEOC at 9:52 to refute Minetas testimony)

Mineta's testimony conflicts with many other people's testimonies that agree with one another. His testimony also likely refers to a shoot-down order. The suggestion that it refers to a stand-down order is completely unfounded.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68450

The point is I'm open to being challenged on all things, I didn't wake up and think today I will be a CTer, infact I wouldn't call me a CTer because I certainly do not believe in other CT's like Roswell, UFO, Pyschics etc...

I hope I've answered some of your questions and I'm sorry for the ignorance, but I'm suppose to be working, but I'm aswering and debate loads of you guys!

I think you'll find, if you truly are open to being challenged, that the 9/11 CTs are exactly as valid as the UFO, JFK, Illuminati, Zionist, etc. CTs. I hope you take the time to look at the evidence we provide.

 

[stundie]

I'm sorry, but didn't you use the -exact- same logic when you claimed the other list was from a "debunking website"

So what does it being a debunking website got to do with the names NOT missing from the flight list?

Talk about clutching at straws!!

My point is which is the most reliable source?

My source had the letters scanned in directly from the FOIA but because peephole claims is a CTer, I'm saying that it shouldn't be dismissed.

Peepholes was a list created in HTML with no links to the original paperwork. Just a list which I could esily create!

I've now exposed lies from 2 so called Skeptics (infact a few from gravy) and I get the feeling this seems to be the case because there is plenty of other evidence other than the links I provide if you are prepared to look. I've only posted a couple of links out of the many from a 911 Cters site (Which I think was a video and a refernce) all my links have come from many other source.

Its seem to be that all these debunkers have read the debunkers stuff and ended there investigations there. The same as CTers!! If like the CTers can have ulteriour motives and be liars, then why can't the debunkers?

The point is, yes the debunkers to a grat job of debunking some of the theories, but then some they cannot debunk hence the need for a proper investigation.

I do not have all the answers, neither do I claim to but I've read and watch as much as I can about 9/11 from all sides and I'll tell you the offical version doesn't add up....You can argue to the death with me that it does, but it's full of gaping holes that don't add up. I could go on about that but it would mean opening up a new thread and I'm struggling with the 3 that were disected from my original post which I am answering

So that was my point!

 

[Belz...]

I show you evidence. I've posted nothing from a conspiracy website, yet I'm a CTer!!

You are proposing that the government KNEW about the attacks and let them happen. You are also proposing that the buildings were demolished using thermate, which seems, on its face, contradictory with the "let it happen" theory. Both of those would involve many, many people in the murder of 3000 citizens. That's a conspiracy to commit murder. You're the claimant, and that makes you a conspiracy theorist.

Anything else ?

You guys ask me to search the forum, which I have done and it appears you haven't debunked anything because you are not willing to look past it or at both sides of the arguments.

We are, and we have. Thermate will not have the effects you claim it will. The buildings collapsed nothing like a controlled demolition, NORAD was not notified quickly enough to respond to the threat, the hijackers are not still alive, the damage to the towers was sufficient to bring them down, WTC7 was known by firefighters to be unsafe, Silverstein didn't make a dime with this event, and Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11.

Is there any actual point you wish to bring to the debate ?

I give you some info on why & how 9/11 happened and not Schizophrenia is being banded about.

If it's not schizophrenia or paranoia then please stop acting as though your opponents here are part of the cover-up.

Oh and of course, goverment have never murdered anyone for there own gains!!

Now who's misquoting ? Who here has ever said this ?

 

[Alt+F4]

Your argument is he is a CTer!! Oh well we had better dismiss him?

So what has him being a CTer got to do with the names missing from names from the flight list obtained under the FOIA??

Talk about clutching at straws!!

Dr. Olmstead believes that the WTC and the Pentagon were attacked by remote controled planes, not Boeing passenger jets.

He's calls the victims "victims" and insinuates that some of them were at least partially responsible for their own murders.

Why would I believe ANYTHING this disrespectful creep says?


BTW, why do you?

 

[WildCat]

I do not have all the answers,

You don't have any answers, and have been proven wrong on just about every claim you made here.

Woowoo!

 

[Belz...]

The war on terror is a war between Neoconservatives and Islam. Islamists and the Neocons are, in reality, soul mates!

You might argue, erroneously, that their methods are similar, but that doesn't mean they are allies.

A fundamental belief of Strauss has to do with their insistence on the need for secrecy and the necessity of lies.

Kinda like the early Christian apologists. "Pious fraud" was the term coined.

Neoconservatives in the American foreign policy establishment have vastly exaggerated those threats in their quest to remake the world in the image of the United States.

Well, if I have to choose between a religious hegemony and that, guess what I'll pick.

After the cold war and the collapse of Russia and communism. The Neo-cons needed a new enemey. They believed that by having a common enemy, they would unite Americans together and if they became scared of that threat, then the people would rely on the goverment to protect them, so much so that they would give up there liberties in order for security and safety.

I could go on....but watch the documentary before you judge and the evidence it presents.

Yes, because so far all you do is assert.

If we believe the offical story like some of the other in here, we will never know what REALLY happened.

Unless the official story is, essentially, correct. Now, do you have actual evidence, or more assertions, "questions" and "inconsistencies" ?

I hope I've answered some of your questions and I'm sorry for the ignorance, but I'm suppose to be working, but I'm aswering and debate loads of you guys!

Your energies would be better focused on working.

 

[apathoid]

Stundie, the links peephole gave you were to a passenger manifest from American Airlines. The list you provided was a list of passengers IDed by DNA. Big difference. Can you think of a reason that the hijackers might not be able to be identified? Follow up - do you know how these passengers were IDed?

I've now exposed lies from 2 so called Skeptics (infact a few from gravy) and I get the feeling this seems to be the case because there is plenty of other evidence other than the links I provide if you are prepared to look.

Please list the lies you have exposed. The only thing you've exposed thus far, in this posters opinion, is your own ignorance..

 

[Belz...]

Your link is from a debunking website, my link is from Thomas R. Olmsted, M.D who requested this information under the FIOA. http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article_tro.htm

His list contains no Arab names!!

The fact that he puts "crashes" in scare quotes when refering to the planes certainly pegs him as a serious investigator.

Your argument is he is a CTer!! Oh well we had better dismiss him?

Yes, because, historically, people who deride the murder of thousands to advance their own crazy theories are not to be trusted.

Also, please answer maccy's question:

I suppose the main question about thermite/thermate is why would anybody use an incendiary to demolish a building?

I've now exposed lies from 2 so called Skeptics (infact a few from gravy) and I get the feeling this seems to be the case because there is plenty of other evidence other than the links I provide if you are prepared to look. I've only posted a couple of links out of the many from a 911 Cters site (Which I think was a video and a refernce) all my links have come from many other source.

Yes, I'm sure all those structual engineers are in on it, too.

The point is, yes the debunkers to a grat job of debunking some of the theories, but then some they cannot debunk hence the need for a proper investigation.

I do believe there was one.

I do not have all the answers, neither do I claim to but I've read and watch as much as I can about 9/11 from all sides and I'll tell you the offical version doesn't add up....You can argue to the death with me that it does, but it's full of gaping holes that don't add up

You can argue to the death with me that it doesn't, but without solid evidence you're just flapping your gums.

 

[maccy]

As far as this thread is concerned, I think the point still stands that most of the people you have listed do not believe that there was a government conspiracy behind 9/11. Some of those that do have been shown to have beliefs on other subjects that would suggest that their relationship with reality is tenuous at best.

I'd like to know what you think about the following tinhatters in the movement:

Alex Jones (apparently believes every conspiracy theory ever, plus some he's made up himself)
Steve Jones (cold fusion)
Judy Wood and Morgan Reynolds (star wars beam weapons, no planes)
Jim Fetzer (JFK)
Rick Ratjer (no planes, holocaust denier)
Eric Hufschmid (holocaust denier)

Plus the following cynical exploiters, profiting form a tragedy:
Dylan Avery, Korey Rowe, Jason Bermas (deadbeat kids trying to get themselves a career in movies).
Alex Jones, again (cynicism dependent on how deluded he really is, but he still profits).

Do you stand for or against these people?

And can you find a single person that supports a theory of any kind of deliberate action on behalf of the government to cause 9/11 (either MIHOP or LIHOP) who isn't crazy or doesn't have a financial motive for perpetuating conspiracy theories?

 

[WildCat]

Your link is from a debunking website, my link is from Thomas R. Olmsted, M.D who requested this information under the FIOA. http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article_tro.htm

His list contains no Arab names!!

His list is a victims list. The hijackers were the perps, not the victims.

This is some piss-poor "research" you rely on.

The list from 9/11 Myths was the actual flight manifests, received through a FOIA request. It is identical to the manifests obtained by the Boston Globe and published there within a day or 2 of 9/11.

You are 100% wrong.

What does all this tell you about the integrity of those "researchers" propagating this bunk?

 

[Alt+F4]

The fact that he puts "crashes" in scare quotes when refering to the planes certainly pegs him as a serious investigator.

Yes, because, historically, people who deride the murder of thousands to advance their own crazy theories are not to be trusted..

Stundie has said so many times that he's not a tin-foil wearing CT nut, but then he uses other nuts websites for his "evidence".

 

[MikeW]

The list from 9/11 Myths was the actual flight manifests, received through a FOIA request. It is identical to the manifests obtained by the Boston Globe and published there within a day or 2 of 9/11.

Not quite: the lists came from author & journalist Terry McDermott, who said he got them via the FBI, not from an FOIA request. They have some inconsistencies in themselves (ie some missing passengers) which I mention on the site, but as you say, they do otherwise match the Boston Globe lists, and those published during the Moussaoui trial.

 

[Belz...]

Those people should check other lists of stuff from various sites and realise that, quite often, the same lists from various sources will be <gasp> DIFFERENT!

 

[apathoid]

Not quite: the lists came from author & journalist Terry McDermott, who said he got them via the FBI, not from an FOIA request. They have some inconsistencies in themselves (ie some missing passengers) which I mention on the site, but as you say, they do otherwise match the Boston Globe lists, and those published during the Moussaoui trial.

Before Stundie gets too carried away about the missing pax, its worth noting that all of those missing were non-revenue standbys...its my opinion that the lists that are missing passengers are lists of boarded confirmed passengers.

 

[MikeW]

My point is which is the most reliable source?

My source had the letters scanned in directly from the FOIA but because peephole claims is a CTer, I'm saying that it shouldn't be dismissed.

No need to dismiss it. Just look at it: the documents don't mean what you (or Olmsted) says they mean.

Take a look at the title page for this list, for instance, and you'll see it's described as "the final list of bodies that were identified by the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, at the Pentagon crash site of Flight 77”. So the hijackers not being included doesn't mean they weren't on the plane: it just means they weren't identified by the AFIP.

Is that inconsistent with the official story? Nope:

"Families of the airplanes' passengers and crews and those who died within the Pentagon provided DNA samples, typically on toothbrushes or hairbrushes, to aid with identification. The remains that didn't match any of the samples were ruled to be the terrorists, said Chris Kelly, spokesman for the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, which did the DNA work. The nine sets of remains matched the number of hijackers believed to be on the two planes..."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/17/attack/main519033.shtml

There were additional remains, say the AFIP. They didn't have samples at that time from hijackers relatives, therefore they couldn't identify them, therefore they didn't appear on Olmsted's list. His document is exactly what you'd expect, then. In fact if the hijackers names DID appear on the list you'd be here saying THAT proved a conspiracy because "there's no way they could have the DNA samples so quickly", wouldn't you?

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Don't ever question my homework. I have studied all I can from this.

"Don't ever?"

The human ego. Quite an amazing thing.

It appear all you skeptics have accepted the debunker versions of events.

I think you need to do yours......

Says the newbie to the forum who has not had the pleasure of scrutinizing post after post in thread after thread, not to mention the various study guides.

So yeah, I "question" your homework.

 

[T.A.M.]

Stundie:

Put options:

Yes they were higher than normal just prior to 9/11, I believe the average was about 1000, and they reached upto 4000 prior to 9/11 (I am going off memory here). However, on two other occasions in 2001 the same options reached levels higher than that, and on one occasion (I believe either april or june 2001) they reached 8000. So why no terrorist attack on those occasions?

Warnings:

Do I believe the USG had warnings of an impending attack prior to 9/11? Absolutely. Do I think they had hundreds of warnings that year? Absolutely. Do I believe they had agents working to discover more about credible threats? Absolutely. Do I believe that the USG had SPECIFIC warnings that included method, location, and time? Not a chance in hell, and it has never been proven as such.

Asbestos issues:

$600 Million, to these people, and in comparison to the worth of the buildings, is trivial. Silverstein and crew could borrow $600 Million from their next door neighbours wallet (an exaggeration, but you get my point).

In General:
If you are annoyed at many here not giving you linked references, please take into account that they get people like yourself, coming in here with the exact same arguements all the time, and they get a little annoyed, and often just default to "debunked". to be honest they could care less what your views are, as they know they will never convince you anyway.

It comes down to what sources you feel are credible, versus which ones we do. If you believe that the fringe blogs and internet news agencies are the best source of evidence, than your view will be much different then those who feel NIST, FEMA, 9/11 Commission, and other authorities are the best sources...it is as simple as that I am afraid.


TAM