Belz...
Fiend God
Yes. Thousands upon thousands of conspirators, world-wide, are involved in the murder of thousands more, to advance their plans.
And there is no trace of this, anywhere.
Schizophrenia, anyone ?
Stundie's "people who don't buy the official theory" thread
- Thread starter maccy
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Yes. Thousands upon thousands of conspirators, world-wide, are involved in the murder of thousands more, to advance their plans.
And there is no trace of this, anywhere.
Schizophrenia, anyone ?
Flo
Illuminator
You haven't got a clue about what I've made my mind up with. Especially since it appears very clearly from what you write here that you havent read any of the numerous threads, articles, and sites that many people here have suggested you study before you accuse us of not doing our homework.
One thing that has helped me make my mind up is the clear dishonesty people like you use all the time ... whining about being misquoted and not being presented proper arguments, refusing to acknowledge them when they are repeatedly presented to you, continuously moving the goalposts, using strawmen, and throwing ad hominems ...
Larry Lovage
Thinker
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No... Stundie you haven't actually addressed the issue of - were the government complicit because there never were any hijackers, or were they complicit because they ignored the warnings about the actual hijackers?
Linking the careers of two people who would never have met nor agreed with each others' viewpoints (correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Strauss Jewish?) is "argument by baseless smear and innuendo". And I don't even have to look at the video to see that! I think we can safely say that Al Qutb wasn't a neocon!
Big business does well out of war. Big whup. Now provide the proof that 9/11 was caused by the Iraq war instead of the other way round. Demonstrate that Zbigniew Brzezinski promoted the idea of committing the biggest mass murder ever as a good excuse for going to war. Saying "Everything's peaceful and we're not really looking to interfere in the world again, barring another Pearl Harbor", doesn't really cut it. Seriously, the worst thing you can accuse the neocons of on the day of 9/11 was rubbing their hands with glee that their longed-for opportunity had arrived.
But to get back to my first point - either there never were hijackers, or the government didn't do anything about the hijackers. Seems to me the only people who didn't know about these 20 hijackers (including the sacked Moussaoui) were the United States Government!
So here is how it goes.
I show you evidence. I've posted nothing from a conspiracy website, yet I'm a CTer!!
You guys ask me to search the forum, which I have done and it appears you haven't debunked anything because you are not willing to look past it or at both sides of the arguments.
I give you some info on why & how 9/11 happened and not Schizophrenia is being banded about.
Oh and of course, goverment have never murdered anyone for there own gains!!
Again...You would not make the link because you have EDUCATED yourself.....
The war on terror is a war between Neoconservatives and Islam. Islamists and the Neocons are, in reality, soul mates!
They both believe that the problem with modern society is that individuals who question anything have already torn down God, that eventually they will tear down everything else and therefore they will have to be opposed.
The Egyptian literary critic (Considered to be the founder of Islamic Fundamentalism) Sayyid Qutb attended graduate school in Greeley, Colorado in 1949.
It was Qutb's encounter with the United States that helped turn him into the Lenin of the radical Islamists. One summer night, the puritanical Qutb went to a dance at a local church hall. The idea that a house of worship playing a secular love song crystallized Qutb's sense that Americans were deeply corrupt and interested only in invidualism and self-gratification.
On his return to Egypt, Qutb joined the Muslim Brotherhood and was arrested on Gamal Abdel Nasser orders in 1954 for supposedly plotting a revolution. Qutb was then subjected to the most dreadful tortures which he survived, but the torture had a powerful, radicalizing effect on his ideas. Qutb argued that Egypt's secular nationalist government was presiding over a country mired in a state of pre-Islamic barbarity known as jahiliyyah and that the government should be overthrown.
Qutb was executed in 1966, but he would profoundly influence a teenager named Ayman al-Zawahiri, (Osama Bin Ladens Mentor)who set up a jihadist cell dedicated to the Qutbian theory that Egyptian government officials were apostates from Islam and therefore deserved death.
Political philosopher Leo Strauss who shared the same fears about the destructive influence of individualism in America as Qutb, was telling his students, many of whom went on to influential careers in politics, (Wolfowitz/Rumsfeld) that liberalism was fatally weakening the US body politic and sapping Americans will to defend "freedom." Intellectuals, he believed, would have to spread an ideology of good and evil, whether they believed it or not, so that the American people could be mobilized against the enemies of freedom.
The ancient philosophers whom Strauss most cherished believed that the unwashed masses were not fit for either truth or liberty, and that giving them these sublime treasures would be like throwing pearls before swine.
A fundamental belief of Strauss has to do with their insistence on the need for secrecy and the necessity of lies. Strauss argues that the wise must conceal their views for two reasons. To spare the peoples feelings and to protect the elite from possible reprisals.
The effect of his teaching is to convince his acolytes that they are the natural ruling elite and the persecuted few. It does not take much intelligence for them to surmise that they are in a situation of great danger, especially in a world devoted to the modern ideas of equal rights and freedoms.
Strauss was not as hostile to democracy as he was to liberalism. This is because he recognises that the vulgar masses have numbers on their side, and the sheer power of numbers cannot be completely ignored.
WHATEVER can be done to bring the masses along is legitimate. If you can use democracy to turn the masses against their own liberty, this is a great triumph. It is the sort of tactic that neo-conservatives use consistently, and in some cases very successfully.
Neoconservatives in the American foreign policy establishment have vastly exaggerated those threats in their quest to remake the world in the image of the United States. Neoconservatives were willing to look past the flaws of anyone willing to confront America's enemy such as the fanatical Islamist Afghan warlord Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, whose party received at least $600 million in US aid to fight the Soviets in the 1980s.
After the cold war and the collapse of Russia and communism. The Neo-cons needed a new enemey. They believed that by having a common enemy, they would unite Americans together and if they became scared of that threat, then the people would rely on the goverment to protect them, so much so that they would give up there liberties in order for security and safety.
I could go on....but watch the documentary before you judge and the evidence it presents.
chipmunk stew
Philosopher
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How about addressing the specifics.So here is how it goes.
I show you evidence. I've posted nothing from a conspiracy website, yet I'm a CTer!!
You guys ask me to search the forum, which I have done and it appears you haven't debunked anything because you are not willing to look past it or at both sides of the arguments.
I give you some info on why & how 9/11 happened and not Schizophrenia is being banded about.
Oh and of course, goverment have never murdered anyone for there own gains!!
Sorry another thing, I am not your TEACHER, it is upto you how you want to educate yourself of foreign policies, the miltary/industrial complex which keeps us in Iraq.
If you are prepared to look deeper & watch these documentarys and read books along this line you will get the bigger picture. I'm not here to give you the answers....there upto you to find!!
To
milesalpha
Critical Thinker
- Joined
- May 4, 2006
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"War is good for business" is utter nonsense. Drop by your local university and ask any economics or history professor. Sorry they don't do google videos.
Larry Lovage
Thinker
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stundie, you started so well, and now you've descended to the tactics every single conspiracy theorist takes. You ignore the points that you cannot answer, and attack my level of education, a level of education I thought I'd pretty much demonstrated without necessarily ramming down your throat. Did I not already know who Strauss, Al Qutb and Brzezinski were? And some of what they wrote? It's not fair to expect people to attack my level of knowledge without demonstrating it, but I don't expect people to attack my level of knowledge when I have.stundie said:
Perhaps you'd like to explain to me where I'm supposed to learn about how MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE EVENTS can actually happen.
Now. For the last time. Don't throw any ad hominems. Don't make assumptions about my level of education in these matters. DO READ WHAT IT IS I'M ASKING YOU AND ANSWER THE QUESTION.
I can't educate myself about what you think by reading Brzezinski's book, can I?
So. For the last time.
Which is it? Did the Government demolish the buildings and fake the attacks, or did they ignore the warnings about the real hijackers?
In your opinion.
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Sorry for ignoring you, but I'm beig bombarded here and I'm new to this, so losing track is quite common.
Passenger lists...I was talking about Flight 77 which had no arab names on it under the FOIA. Sorry if I was not specific. http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article_tro.htm
Also PM (Debunking 9/11; States that they had the DNA of the Terrorists.) I can't remember the page, but here is a radio show with PM in which they are asked how did the FBI have there DNA, which again disputes your claim.
http://jonhs.net/911/popular_mechanics_charles_goyette.htm
I'm not saying you are wrong, but the misinformation seems to be spreading and this is why a proper investigation is needed.
If we believe the offical story like some of the other in here, we will never know what REALLY happened.
The point of the thread was the running theme in here is if you do not believe the official story, your a nutjob. I didn't start the thread but my original post was to show that it's not just crackpots who believe the stories, neither am I here to prove or disprove what they have said.
I'm sure there are plenty of people in here who are qualified and can debunk theories, but I've failed to see anything substantiated yet. Infact Gravys (Who seems to be a champion of the offical story!) posts have been nothing but misinformation, not sure if it's intentional or he his misinformed. (He tolds me Cheney arrived at PEOC at 9:52 to refute Minetas testimony)
The point is I'm open to being challenged on all things, I didn't wake up and think today I will be a CTer, infact I wouldn't call me a CTer because I certainly do not believe in other CT's like Roswell, UFO, Pyschics etc...
I hope I've answered some of your questions and I'm sorry for the ignorance, but I'm suppose to be working, but I'm aswering and debate loads of you guys!
jsfisher
ETcorngods survivor
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Why would you post a link that contradicts your hypothesis?
If you follow the high-lighted link, you find a discussion by Jim Dukelow, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, of an op-ed piece Steve Milloy had written for Fox News:
His research leads to supporting the notion asbestos usage stopped by the 40th floor. Jim Dukelow concludes with:
(Emphasis mine.)
If you follow the high-lighted link, you find a discussion by Jim Dukelow, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, of an op-ed piece Steve Milloy had written for Fox News:
(Again, emphasis mine.)
His research leads to supporting the notion asbestos usage stopped by the 40th floor. Jim Dukelow concludes with:
How is asking you too look at the evidence yourself a tactic by conspiracy theorists? I can only give you my opinion, but you can form your own opinions by looking into all the corners!
.......Then you said.....
You said in the previous post you were not aware of the links between Strauss and Qutb, so don't blame me for showing you the links. I'm not attacking you education, I'm attacking the fact you are not willing to look further!
I'm not questioning your education. You can educate yourself about how Americas quest for global dominance plays a part in everyones life and may other things, please read it as I haven't got the time to go over EVERY SINGLE point.
You asking me for answers to questions I do not know?
I do not know for sure whether the goverment staged the attacks or IF they were complicite in them, that is something which you form, but one thing for sure is they KNEW it was going to happen.
You said you do not understand the links on why or how the goverment is complicite in this, I could answer but it will take hours of my time and of course it my opinion.
Another person who has never heard of the Military/Industrail complex!
Ask your local university or economics/history professor about that?
I'll be specific!
What on earth could be fueling those fires for weeks on end?? Piles of wire/aluminium, office materials are going to burn at tempratures to melt steel? Fires need fuel to burn, yes all the things could have burned, but it would not be hot enough to melt steel.
Unless you think the combustable debris/materials are hot enough to melt the steel? hahahaha!! Talk about theories? Where is your proof of this?
The only logical explanation is THERMATE! The molten iron found they clean up crew found is a by product of it!
You have failed to debunk anything and if you really believe you have debunked it, then I'm going to laugh at your so called debunking skills based on what...Your theories?? lol
From the NIST vs popular mechanics thread:
I think it would be better if you tried to stay on one topic for a bit before moving to others.
I suppose the main question about thermite/thermate is why would anybody use an incendiary to demolish a building?
The auxiliary question is: how do you get thermite/thermate to cut through a steel beam anyway? Once the reaction is started, the thermite/thermate will move downwards, not sideways.
Anyway, some more thermite/themate resources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermate
http://www.ilpi.com/genchem/demo/thermite/index.html
If you look at the thermite reactions in this video you'll see it produces a lot of heat very quickly - leading to localised melting that then cools down - not a sustained release of heat. NB thi is shown then they use thermite on the car, in the second part of the video.
Some relevant threads here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67737
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66140
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65247
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64843
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58851
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61469
Some are about thermite/thermate - others about controlled demolition in general.
Peephole
Master Poster
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The passengers lists do contain the hijackers' names:
http://www.911myths.com/html/flight_77_passengers.html
http://www.911myths.com/911_Manifests.zip
The autopsy list Olmsted requested of flight 77 does not contain the hijackers because they were not positively identified through their DNA but through process of elimination:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/17/attack/main519033.shtml
Also, at least three of the hijackers that flew their planes in the WTC were positively identified through their DNA:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2808599.stm
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/354992p-302463c.html
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Your link is from a debunking website, my link is from Thomas R. Olmsted, M.D who requested this information under the FIOA. http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article_tro.htm
His list contains no Arab names!!
So this begs another question, where did they get the original DNA from the hijackers to match it from??
A serious suggestion here stundie - stop posting in any thread except for the Norman Mineta one. Once you've finished in that thread, return to one of the other threads and pick a single topic to discuss. Don't get distracted by other issues. Also, don't get into rhetorical debates - stick to facts and evidence, be specific.
What has happened so far is exactly why I welcomed you the way I did:
It is also why I made efforts to start new threads on subjects you raised, so that the existing threads wouldn't become too confused.
There are a lot of people here who will argue with you - the only way to make this a sensible discussion is to stick to one subject. You seem to be doing this in the Mineta thread so I suggest you only post there for now.
Peephole
Master Poster
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Did you read anything of my post at all? They're not on the autopsy list because they weren't identified through their DNA.
The lists from 911myths.com were obtained through Terry McDermott, who obtained them from the FBI for his book Perfect Soldiers. You can compare them to the manifest obtained by the Boston Globe or the evidence provided in the Moussaoui trial, if you want to.
Try and read the articles we provide you, please.
"The FBI had collected the DNA from tiny traces of skin on the steering wheels of vehicles hired by the hijackers and from hair samples recovered from their hotel rooms."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2808599.stm
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Alt+F4
diabolical globalist
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It's obvious by looking at that link that Dr. Olmsted is a CTer. He even doubts that planes crashed on 9/11 as he puts the word crashed in quotes.
Your argument is he is a CTer!! Oh well we had better dismiss him?
So what has him being a CTer got to do with the names missing from names from the flight list obtained under the FOIA??
Talk about clutching at straws!!