Stundie's NIST vs Popular Mechanics Thread

Yes there were thousands of planes, which had transponders. NORAD don't just start shooting random planes from the sky.

Yes there were thousands of planes in the sky, all of them apart from the hijacked ones had transponders switched on. NORAD don't just start shooting random planes from the sky you know.

After seeing the planes crash into WTC 1 & 2, yes I would have done.

So what do we pay these people for if they are unable to protect its citizens. They train for days like this, constant drills, like the one on the day. So to say they were not prepared is quite a perposterous thought.

Yes hindsight is a great thing! If NORAD wasn't playing War Games I can guarantee those planes would have been intercepted like 60 odd planes were previously that year for going off course or losing radio contact.

You might not want to blame anyone for 9/11...but 3000 lives lost and no one held accountable. If the terrorists had decided to attack, any other day, they may have been stopped.

stundie, to avoid sidetracking this thread, I suggest you start a new one about the NORAD response, or bounce one of these threads:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61752
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67952

In either event, I would recommend reading the two threads above.

Edited to add, and this document:

http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/fst/NORAD.pdf
 
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So PM say pancaking happened...and NIST are saying it didn't?

Yes, there is a conflict there I'm afraid! Unless what you are saying is the NIST started off the invetsigation (They ever explained the collapse just how it started) and PM explained the rest (Not how intiated, but what happened afterwards.) Please!!

There was nothing to investigate after the collapse initiation. The towers came down because the impact of the planes coupled with the subsequent fires exceeded the redundancy of the structural design.

The collapse initiation is of purely academic interest to establish what part of the structure failed first so that building codes and engineering good practice could take such failure into account on future buildings.

If it could have been established that a particular type of weld or mechanical fixing was the cause, then this would have impact on structural design in future.

What NIST established was that the columns failed before the floor assembly.

As far as the overall events of that day, this is of no relevance to anyone outside of the industry because we saw a plane hit a tower, a fire burn unchecked for a period of time afterwards and then the tower collapse.

There is nothing amazing about that.

Perhaps if the buildings had failed to collapse fully then we want to know what mechanism caused them to stop collapsing.

But they didn't stop.

If you want to know how the collapse started, then read NIST

If you want to know how it continued read PM
 
Please, you are trying to convince me the fires burning below was some kind of firepit?

If kersone based fuel doesn't melt steel and it cannot get hotter than these tempreture of Kersone. How comes there big lumps of steel fused with concrete? How did the tempratures get hot enough to melt the steel?

I'm all ears on this one? :)
stundie, you're trotting out all of the same old chesnuts that many, many CTers before you have done on this forum. And they've all been answered. Thoroughly. Repeatedly.

Kindly use the 'Search' functionality of the Forum, and stop wasting everyone's time.
 
Someone has suggested either thermite or thermate which sounds logical to me but hey....what do I know, I'm just a mad CTer!!

It sounds logical to you? Ok, perhaps I missed the post where you stated your expertise in chemistry, structrual engineering and physics.
 
Yes there were thousands of planes, which had transponders. NORAD don't just start shooting random planes from the sky.

Yes there were thousands of planes in the sky, all of them apart from the hijacked ones had transponders switched on. NORAD don't just start shooting random planes from the sky you know.


After seeing the planes crash into WTC 1 & 2, yes I would have done.

So what do we pay these people for if they are unable to protect its citizens. They train for days like this, constant drills, like the one on the day. So to say they were not prepared is quite a perposterous thought.

Yes hindsight is a great thing! If NORAD wasn't playing War Games I can guarantee those planes would have been intercepted like 60 odd planes were previously that year for going off course or losing radio contact.

You might not want to blame anyone for 9/11...but 3000 lives lost and no one held accountable. If the terrorists had decided to attack, any other day, they may have been stopped.

I’m sorry but you can guarantee nothing because you were not there nor are you qualified to issue such a guarantee.
So it appears that on the day you would have shot down passenger planes full of innocent people. Of course only the ones that had there transponders switched off and after the Towers had been hit. You would have done this without regret and without the slightest doubt whatsoever that any plane in the air that had its transponder switched off was infact and hijacked plane on a suicide mission and without the slightest hesitation shoot it out off the sky.

My, you are so full of your self you can not only issue guarantees that you could have stopped the attack but killed innocent people in the possess by shooting them out of the sky. This from somebody who claims to seek justice against that didn’t do so, this from somebody who would rather point the finger at those that tried, but ultimately failed to stop it all.

I’m sorry my friend but your double standards are becoming quite transparent. You apparently neither seek the truth nor wish for the truth but you seek retribution against those who did what you can not do. That being they paused, they thought and made a decision.It was based on one thing , humanity, a basic human urge to preserve life. To not shoot everything that moves and hope to God you get it right.

You do wish to blame somebody for this terrorist attack, not the terrorists themselves but those who had to try to deal with it as it unfolded. You wish to blame the very people who are charged with, every day looking after and securing your safety. These, you wish to blame and these you believe you are better qualified to speak than.

My friend it is as well you were not in charge on that day and it is as well you were not the one making the decisions.
 
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Yes there were thousands of planes, which had transponders. NORAD don't just start shooting random planes from the sky.

Yes there were thousands of planes in the sky, all of them apart from the hijacked ones had transponders switched on. NORAD don't just start shooting random planes from the sky you know.


Do you think turning a planes transponder off makes it easier or harder to find?

Please answer in this thread:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61752

which I've bounced for you.

I'd recommend reading this document first, though:

http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/fst/NORAD.pdf

Everybody, can we move NORAD discussion off this thread and onto the one above? There's plenty to talk about here as it is...
 
Do you think turning a planes transponder off makes it easier or harder to find?

This brings up a point that's been bugging me for awhile. Why does the design of a civilian passenger jet give the pilot the power to turn the plane's transponder?
 
This brings up a point that's been bugging me for awhile. Why does the design of a civilian passenger jet give the pilot the power to turn the plane's transponder?

In common with most aircraft "black boxes", you need to be able to turn it on and off (or into standby at least) in case it fails. It's also a way of positively making sure that the kit is on - much of this kit could probably be automated, but crews run through checklists to ensure a) that a system is on b) that it's functioning, and c) both crewmembers are aware of the status of a system and record it in some way.

Added to this, there are multiple "modes" for the transponder for different circumstances, so you need to be able to select any one at any one time, which naturally enough involves having the capability to switch off one or more of them. I think you also need to manually enter the code requested by Air Traffic Control - perhaps these codes could be delivered from ATC to an onboard computer rather than over radio, but again it's probably about positive procedure designed to make sure everyone knows what's happening with what.

The simplest reason is "why not"? At least until 9/11, it wasn't a major issue to consider. To make it tamper-proof it would need to be ultra reliable and redundant, and you'd have to isolate it from any controls and bury it in the airframe somewhere. Or use some sort of security lockout to access the modes. In the scheme of things, that's a lot of effort for possibly little potential return in terms of successfully dealing with hijackings. And I don't know, I'm no pilot or engineer. Maybe it's being looked into? But you might just as well ask why many other systems aren't automated and locked out - reliability, serviceability and cost are probably the main reasons. Aviation types don't like to remove the human from the loop unless it's truly safe and cost-effective to do so.

You could do worse than sign up to www.pprune.org and post a question in Tech Log, though they will probably assume you're a CT!

ETA - you also have to consider that lack of response to radio calls, being out of position, and dicking around with the transponder, are all signs of trouble. If you have the transponders somehow automated, that's one warning sign removed.

ETA again - this pdf has an interesting comment about transponders perhaps being viewed legally as "defective" for being possible to turn off - http://www.fed-soc.org/pdf/Collateraldamage.pdf - I think this is just brainstorming by a legal type who doesn't know the technical details (not that I do very well!).
 
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It appears Stundie has fallen for it hook, line, and sinker.

Why does nobody think for himself now days? What is wrong with people?
 
stundie, to avoid sidetracking this thread, I suggest you start a new one about the NORAD response, or bounce one of these threads:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61752
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67952

In either event, I would recommend reading the two threads above.

Edited to add, and this document:

http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/fst/NORAD.pdf

Thanks Maccy, I would but I'm being bombarded by skeptic and cannot keep track of all the posts. I'll keep to the debate but when I mention something, I get a skeptic quickly quoting me and debunking me.....Which in turn opens up a can of worms!
 
It appears Stundie has fallen for it hook, line, and sinker.

Why does nobody think for himself now days? What is wrong with people?


I do think for myself! As I have said previously, my sources do not come from Conspiracy Sites....they come from a wealth of sources. Reading books like The Grand Chessboard by Zbigniew Brzezinski and watching Documentaries like "Why We Fight" support my theories of conspiracy because so many people have so much to gain.

Its feeding the Military/Industrial complex which now includes congress that Eisenhower warned Americans to be wary off over 50 years ago!
 
I do think for myself! As I have said previously, my sources do not come from Conspiracy Sites....they come from a wealth of sources. Reading books like The Grand Chessboard by Zbigniew Brzezinski and watching Documentaries like "Why We Fight" support my theories of conspiracy because so many people have so much to gain.

Its feeding the Military/Industrial complex which now includes congress that Eisenhower warned Americans to be wary off over 50 years ago!
The government had a lot to gain by capitalizing on 9/11, this does not mean that they caused it; That's a huge difference.

If this all-powerful all-seeing entity orchestrated the greatest and most complex operation of all time (The controlled demolition of 3 WTC buildings), why didn't they at least plant some WMDs in Iraq?? That one event started a downward slide in support for the war. Doesn't that seem strange to you?

Hey, I'm just asking questions here.
 
If this all-powerful all-seeing entity orchestrated the greatest and most complex operation of all time (The controlled demolition of 3 WTC buildings), why didn't they at least plant some WMDs in Iraq?? That one event started a downward slide in support for the war. Doesn't that seem strange to you?

Hey, I'm just asking questions here.

Good question and I have another. If 9/11 was done as a pretext of a war against Iraq, why not use Iraqi patsy/terrorists? Why use Saudis?
 
Good question and I have another. If 9/11 was done as a pretext of a war against Iraq, why not use Iraqi patsy/terrorists? Why use Saudis?

Americans would never accept invading another country.

So when the attacks happened, it was 1st blamed on Osama. After the invasion of Afghan, when the hunt for him went cold, a new lie/faulty intel started spreading that Saddam had links to Al-Qaeda.

Hence the justification for the invasion of iraq, plus bolstered by the WMD claim. Which convinced congress and everyone that Iraq were the terrorists!

Does it really matter where the patsy come from? All they needed was a patsy.


BTW...Your going off the threads original posting!
 
The government had a lot to gain by capitalizing on 9/11, this does not mean that they caused it; That's a huge difference.

If this all-powerful all-seeing entity orchestrated the greatest and most complex operation of all time (The controlled demolition of 3 WTC buildings), why didn't they at least plant some WMDs in Iraq?? That one event started a downward slide in support for the war. Doesn't that seem strange to you?

Hey, I'm just asking questions here.

Its good you are asking questions.

I never said it was an all seeing entity, that is you orchestrating that opinion because thats what you think people like me think.

Why bother planting WMD, a little too much trouble when you can just lie about it, even though UN weapons inspector are telling you there are none!!
 
BTW...Your going off the threads original posting!

You've constantly gone off topic in this and other threads. If you really want to stay on topic you should ignore posts that go off topic - or post a quick reply to say that you don't want to discuss that point just yet, as you're concentrating on the topic of the thread. Also, you should avoid going off at a tangent in your replies to posts that are on-topic.
 
Why bother planting WMD, a little too much trouble when you can just lie about it, even though UN weapons inspector are telling you there are none!!

So it's too much trouble to plant WMDs but it isn't too much trouble to stage a false flag scheme by controlled demolition of 3 builinings, the staged hijacking of 4 planes, te staged attack on the pentagon and the faked crash of flight 93?

Also, what does the US gain from invading Afghanistan?
 
I do think for myself! As I have said previously, my sources do not come from Conspiracy Sites....they come from a wealth of sources. Reading books like The Grand Chessboard by Zbigniew Brzezinski and watching Documentaries like "Why We Fight" support my theories of conspiracy because so many people have so much to gain.

Its feeding the Military/Industrial complex which now includes congress that Eisenhower warned Americans to be wary off over 50 years ago!

Stundie can't I suggest that you look at this thread about the financial aspects of 9/11:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69261
 

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