Stundie's NIST vs Popular Mechanics Thread

So Popular Mechanics' explanation is not exact ? How does this point to a conspiracy ?

I never said it pointed to a conspiracy! The facts are EITHER one is RIGHT or BOTH are WRONG. Its a contradiction!
No, they are both right. The towers "pancake collapsed" as PM states but the inititiation of collapse wasn't the pancaking of the floors, it was the inward bowing of the exterior collumns as NIST states. PM isn't talking about the initiation but the collapse itself.
No I would rather they investigated as to what happened. The illegal destruction of evidence was conducted over the objections of attack victims' family members and respected public safety officials.
What illegal destruction?
Fires found weeks after the collapse and a whole heap of other things which have not been explained.
What's there to explain about the fires? A building fell, it caused fires. They burned for a while. Big deal.
 
The Vice President only agreed testify to the Commission along with the President in closed session, with no transcript, no witnesses, and no public accountability. What is he hiding?

So Cheney is evil enough to partake in a conspiracy that killed 3,000 people but he's too afraid to testify under oath? How does that make sense?
 
Please visit the link you posted too see my comments about Minetas testimony.

I've hopefully demonstrated that the only plane it could have been is the plane that hit the pentagon and that it couldn't have been a shoot down order, because if it was, why didn't they shoot it down.

Seriously, and in all honesty given the absolute chaos that followed the second plane hitting the towers would you have shot down a plane full of innocent people?

There were literally thousands of planes in the air and some them were off course, would you have shot them down?

These are serious decisions that needed to be made in the heat of the moment, so would you have made the call?

Hind sight is a wonderful thing and it is so easy to judge people on what the could and should have done, but we none of us will ever know what went through the minds of those who tried their utmost to get to grips with this extremely fast and deadly terrorist action.

I do find it quite appalling that the cters us the words and the actions of those that were in the spot light and had to make decisions against them. These are just people who,unlike us,had to try and decide what on earth to do when an entire nation comes under attack, out of the blue. IMO they did the best they could and although ultimately could not prevent it did not make it worse by shooting down other passenger planes when the skies were full of them
 
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For the sake of staing on topic, can I suggest that we only discuss the explanations for the building collapse on this thread.

There's a discussion about the Mineta testimony in progress here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68450

More specific threads about NORAD and the amount of air traffic in a typical day in the US can be found here

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61752
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67952
 
Seriously, and in all honesty given the absolute chaos that followed the second plane hitting the towers would you have shot down a plane full of innocent people?

There were literally thousands of planes in the air and some them were off course, would you have shot them down?

Good points and reminds me of the tragic Payne Stewart plane crash. F-16s followed that flight for about 3 hours and no one in authority could decide what to do. So much confusion and indecision was going on WITHOUT a WTC-like tragedy in the background.
 
Fires found weeks after the collapse and a whole heap of other things which have not been explained.
What's there to explain about the fires? A building fell, it caused fires. They burned for a while. Big deal.

I'm often told when I go to provincial parks to not make a firepit if one already exists in the area, as roots inside the new pit could smolder and start a forest fire sometime later.
 
Speculating!!

No, they are both right. The towers "pancake collapsed" as PM states but the inititiation of collapse wasn't the pancaking of the floors, it was the inward bowing of the exterior collumns as NIST states. PM isn't talking about the initiation but the collapse itself.

But the NIST Report doesn't support PM theory of the pancake collapse? So I'm not sure what you are talking about? Why would NIST talk about the initiation but not the structual failure and then PM decided to conclude the argument.

Like I said, one of them could be right, but they could both be wrong. For all the talk of evidence, there is no evidence to back up this either NIST or PMs theory but its taken as truth, just like the theory for controlled demolitions.


What illegal destruction?
Removal of evidence from a crime scene is ILLEGAL or so I believed?

What's there to explain about the fires? A building fell, it caused fires. They burned for a while. Big deal.

I was talking about the molten metal, fires found weeks after the collapse. I'd love to hear JREF forumers debunking this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx33GuVsUtE

Ive heard debunkers saying fuel from the jets :eek: Molten Aluminum :jaw-dropp but yet noone can still explain it other than calling it unimportant? Or a moot?
 
How large a heap of unexplained things would you be okay with before people started accusing you of murder?

Thought that being part of the JREF forum, you would believe that most things can be explained by reseaching. How about the amount of unexplained things on 9/11 would be a start....but the facts is your ranting....when did I ever accuse anyone of murder??

I'm not sure as to what happened on 9/11. Questions have not been answered which need to be answered because the 9/11 commission has failed to do so.
 
Stop!!

I'm often told when I go to provincial parks to not make a firepit if one already exists in the area, as roots inside the new pit could smolder and start a forest fire sometime later.

Please, you are trying to convince me the fires burning below was some kind of firepit?

If kersone based fuel doesn't melt steel and it cannot get hotter than these tempreture of Kersone. How comes there big lumps of steel fused with concrete? How did the tempratures get hot enough to melt the steel?

I'm all ears on this one? :)
 
But the NIST Report doesn't support PM theory of the pancake collapse? So I'm not sure what you are talking about? Why would NIST talk about the initiation but not the structual failure and then PM decided to conclude the argument.

Like I said, one of them could be right, but they could both be wrong. For all the talk of evidence, there is no evidence to back up this either NIST or PMs theory but its taken as truth, just like the theory for controlled demolitions.

hmmmmmmm
NIST was tasked with explaining why the towers fell.

That means they have to explain what initiated the collapse, since gravity did the rest once it was underway.

PM gave a description of how the collapse progressed after initiation.

There is no conflict.

Oh and there is plenty of evidence to back it up. The steel columns and connections were examined, the damage from the plane impacts was modelled, the structural design of the buildings was assessed and a perfectly believeable, understandable and correct explanation produced.
 
I was talking about the molten metal, fires found weeks after the collapse. I'd love to hear JREF forumers debunking this one.

Why would demolition explosives leave molten metal that would burn for eight weeks afterwards? Isn't the purpose of a controlled demoliton to get a building down quickly and safely?

Just asking questions.....
 
...when did I ever accuse anyone of murder??
Stop being deliberately obtuse. You're no different then the dozens of other CTist who come here "just asking questions". I'll take notice when instead of flapping about coincidences and "unexplained things", you actually bring evidence of something. You'd be the first by the way.
 
Seriously, and in all honesty given the absolute chaos that followed the second plane hitting the towers would you have shot down a plane full of innocent people?

Yes there were thousands of planes, which had transponders. NORAD don't just start shooting random planes from the sky.

There were literally thousands of planes in the air and some them were off course, would you have shot them down?

Yes there were thousands of planes in the sky, all of them apart from the hijacked ones had transponders switched on. NORAD don't just start shooting random planes from the sky you know.

These are serious decisions that needed to be made in the heat of the moment, so would you have made the call?

After seeing the planes crash into WTC 1 & 2, yes I would have done.

Hind sight is a wonderful thing and it is so easy to judge people on what the could and should have done, but we none of us will ever know what went through the minds of those who tried their utmost to get to grips with this extremely fast and deadly terrorist action.

So what do we pay these people for if they are unable to protect its citizens. They train for days like this, constant drills, like the one on the day. So to say they were not prepared is quite a perposterous thought.

I do find it quite appalling that the cters us the words and the actions of those that were in the spot light and had to make decisions against them. These are just people who,unlike us,had to try and decide what on earth to do when an entire nation comes under attack, out of the blue. IMO they did the best they could and although ultimately could not prevent it did not make it worse by shooting down other passenger planes when the skies were full of them

Yes hindsight is a great thing! If NORAD wasn't playing War Games I can guarantee those planes would have been intercepted like 60 odd planes were previously that year for going off course or losing radio contact.


You might not want to blame anyone for 9/11...but 3000 lives lost and no one held accountable. If the terrorists had decided to attack, any other day, they may have been stopped.
 
Why would demolition explosives leave molten metal that would burn for eight weeks afterwards? Isn't the purpose of a controlled demoliton to get a building down quickly and safely?

Just asking questions.....

Who said anything about Demolitions??

So if it's not demolitions, then what is it burning away for weeks?

Someone has suggested either thermite or thermate which sounds logical to me but hey....what do I know, I'm just a mad CTer!!
 
"What maccy said: this is a god of the gaps argument" <----??

It is not a god of the gaps argument.

Oh, yes it is.

you said:

I actually believed the official story until I noticed certain things that didn't add up. The final straw was the NORAD Tapes which prove that the Pentagon lied to the commission but thats is not why I am here.

Basically, you're saying that, because there are points that you don't have an answer for, it proves that the Pentagon lied. Essentially, that LACK of information is PROOF of a particular theory. Only in some cases can absence of evidence be construed as evidence of absence.

Minetas testimony states that Cheney was being warned of the impending attacks on the Pentagon and when asked "If the order still stands" Cheney whipped his head back and said "Of course it still stands, did I say anything to the contrary" <I'm paraphrasing here for speed>

So Cheney knew the planes were coming, so what were his orders?

Again, non sequitur. The fact that some order stood or not doesn't mean he knew about the planes. Please provide a quote and source that shows that he did.

We will never know but logic would suggest this order WAS NOT to scramble fighters to track or shoot down the plane, but infact an order to make sure no fighter planes were scrambled.

Speculation. Logic doesn't suggest this at all.

Either that or Mineta lied under oath! I see no reason why Mineta would lie and Cheneys lack of testimoney could be seen as hiding something.

False dichotomy. There are other explanations. Personally, I like the one where Stundie's misinterpreted the quote.

NOTE : please learn to use the quote function.

I never said it pointed to a conspiracy! The facts are EITHER one is RIGHT or BOTH are WRONG. Its a contradiction!

Not really. If I said the universe is like an expanding balloon, would I be wrong because the universe is NOT a balloon ? Just because an explanation is dumbed down doesn't mean it's in error or a lie.

Again I will ask the question, where is the evidence to suggest that EITHER of the towers collapsed how both PM and NIST say they did?? Because these are THEORIES too, pushed forward by experts paid to investigate it.

They are findings, not theories. Like when experts make a report about an office fire. Do you trust them then ? They were paid, too.

No I would rather they investigated as to what happened.

They did. Read the report.

The illegal destruction of evidence was conducted over the objections of attack victims' family members and respected public safety officials.

A) They didn't need to examine EVERY piece of metal from the site, Stundie.

B) Please link some of those objections. I'd like to see them.

The quick clean up operation is part of the reason, 5 year afterwards they are still finding human remains. Is that is not disrespectful to the people who died that day?

It's not "disrespectful" at all. It was a huge event. Those kinds of things are expected, albeit regrettable.

Yes it's a big job, but wouldn't you prefer to find out why it happened based on EVIDENCE and not theories??

You are aware, of course, that theories are BASED on evidence ?

Fires found weeks after the collapse and a whole heap of other things which have not been explained.

Outward lie. Fires in enclosed areas can continue for months. This is no new phenomenon.

This just a tiny part in the idea of a conspiracy. I've posted quotes on people who do not believe the offical story, but I can't post links, so I'm afraid you'll have to do some research.

Beliefs are not evidence.
 
hmmmmmmm
NIST was tasked with explaining why the towers fell.

That means they have to explain what initiated the collapse, since gravity did the rest once it was underway.

PM gave a description of how the collapse progressed after initiation.

There is no conflict.

Oh and there is plenty of evidence to back it up. The steel columns and connections were examined, the damage from the plane impacts was modelled, the structural design of the buildings was assessed and a perfectly believeable, understandable and correct explanation produced.

So PM say pancaking happened...and NIST are saying it didn't?

Yes, there is a conflict there I'm afraid! Unless what you are saying is the NIST started off the invetsigation (They ever explained the collapse just how it started) and PM explained the rest (Not how intiated, but what happened afterwards.) Please!!
 
Removal of evidence from a crime scene is ILLEGAL or so I believed?

That wasn't a crime scene.

Ive heard debunkers saying fuel from the jets Molten Aluminum

Yes. The facade of the building was made from aluminum. You don't expect some of the stuff to melt ?

Thought that being part of the JREF forum, you would believe that most things can be explained by reseaching. How about the amount of unexplained things on 9/11 would be a start....but the facts is your ranting....when did I ever accuse anyone of murder??

Actually, his was a good question. How large a heap of unexplained things would you be okay with before people started accusing you of murder?
 
Someone has suggested either thermite or thermate which sounds logical to me but hey....what do I know, I'm just a mad CTer!!

I don't know very much about thermite or thermate, so could you explain to me how the use of this product would explain the 'burning away for weeks'?

Cheers
 
fires found weeks after the collapse.

Fires found 100 years after the collapse. Fires underground can burn for a long time.

Perhaps the most famous coal seam fire in history ignited in 1961 at Centralia, Pennsylvania, when someone decided to burn some rubbish in an old coal pit. The fire lit a coal seam that stretched for many kilometres. Over the next few years, the town authorities tried pouring water on the fire, blocking off vents with concrete and even excavating the burning coal. As costs rose to millions of dollars, the decision was taken to relocate the town's 1100 inhabitants.
I guess you must be right, a fire started by burning rubbish can destroy a whole town, but three burning skyscrapers collapsing could never have fires after a couple of weeks.
 

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