Atheism is a faith.

[The Atheist]

Why do you have such a downer on examining ones beliefs, as that is what philosophy can do? Of course there is the big problem of how is "obvious" defined! How do you define it and what is your reasoning for that definition? Other people might find other things more or less obvious.

Just another unwanted 2c worth, but I'm firmly with Taffy on this one - some things are just so bleeding obvious it's dumb to question them.

We're not just talking about getting struck by lightning. The odds (for me) are somewhere in the vicinity of being struck by lightning while having sex with Michelle Pfeiffer on the deck of a 24m cruiser in the Seychelles and simultaneously hooking into a world record marlin. I'll take those odds, any day.

Philosophy, in my experience, tends to turn out two distinct types of people. Those who parrot someone else's philosophy and those who think far too much for their own good and end up with no idea of what, or in fact if, they think. There's a couple of strawmen for someone to set fire to! There must be a third group somewhere, but I've yet to identify anyone belonging to it.

 

[hammegk]

Philosophy, in my experience, tends to turn out two distinct types of people. Those who parrot someone else's philosophy and those who think far too much for their own good and end up with no idea of what, or in fact if, they think.

Is atheism a philosophy? If not, why not?

 

[CapelDodger]

What do you mean by "warm-and-fuzzies"?

This smacks of ... something sad. You've read my posts.

Why do you have such a downer on examining ones beliefs, as that is what philosophy can do?

One can examine one's beliefs without Philosophy. Philosophy has some minor value as second-order thinking, thinking-about-thinking, but it's inappropriate to apply it to first-order thinking, let alone examination and interpretation of the real world. The appropriate aspects of Philosophy budded-off to form new, distinct fields, the most obvious of which is Science. What remains is the Aristotelean self-worship of self-defined "wise men", "wise men" being Philosophers, of course.

Of course there is the big problem of how is "obvious" defined! How do you define it and what is your reasoning for that definition? Other people might find other things more or less obvious.

Philosophy at its best - "What do we mean by "obvious? What do we mean by "we"? What do mean by "mean"?

Define "obvious"? You do see the problem there, don't you?

Some people fail to find it obvious that if Mystic Meg has clues to the winning lottery numbers she's not going to be telling them about it. Let us speak of such people no more.

You seem very sure of my experiences and beliefs when you know very little about me ...

That would be a failure on your part, since you've been trying to get across to us something of your nature and beliefs, have you not? What comes across to me is nothing terribly special, nothing I haven't heard before. Your opinion might be different, but if that were true it poses some questions about a god that is so selective that I've never come across anyone touched by it before. After all, I'm in my fifties, I've been around and I've met a lot of different folk. I'm still meeting them, I was discussing religion with a Malaysian Catholic student recently. Not much meeting of minds there, I must confess. pun intended

...and I would be wary of saying that one doesn't need to as you already know the truth.

Again with the pre-emption. I know the swamp I walk in, and wariness is my watchword. Well, one of them.

Since I don't think anybody's idea of God maps very accurately onto God, as the finite isn't great at grasping the infinite, it is quite possible that people of varying faiths may be experiencing something of the same God.

Or this god might be a right bastard who enjoys messing with people's minds. After all, they couldn't know they were being messed with. No-one can claim that they can't be fooled by an infinite god.

The human mind isn't great at imagining the infinite, some think they can but when you start poking at their idea it gets fuzzier and fuzzier until there's nothing left but the smile.

Don't make the mistake ...

Don't make the mistake of trying to lecture me. If you see me make a mistake, then step in. M'kay?

If this post comes across as brusque then I apologise as I want to dialogue but we might find it difficult unless we are very careful about the meanings of certain words and understand where the other is coming from.

As you may have discerned, I reckon I've got you pretty well pegged. If you find me brusque, well, it's what I do. I deal professionally with the Public by day, I come here by night to work off the tension.

 

[CapelDodger]

... but I'm firmly with Taffy on this one ...

Don't do that. One warning. That was it. M'kay?

 

[RandFan]

I think though, that there are some Xtians who do not compartmentalise thinking and faith so much...

They likely don't think much about their religion or they are incapable of understanding logic and contradiction or their beliefs are so vague and vacuous that they are mostly meaningless.

(I think it is impossible to say how much). My religion is Xtian and my main tradition is Anglican (Episcopalian) which some people (not you) feel the need to insult because it isn't fundamentalist, says it doesn't have final answers but is trying to grope towards the truth, doesn't say that God created the world in 6 days, has a beard and lives in the sky and that you are going to hell you sinners.

Do they believe in a personal god or are the more toward the Deist end of the scale? Do they see the Bible as largely allegorical and having little if anything to do with God? Do they reject the notion that God had his son killed to protect his children from his wrath?

Before I became an atheist I was first a Deist. That was the result of realizing that much of the details of religion are simply illogical and I would have to either compartmentalize my beliefs or reject that God cares anything about anyone or has anything to do with day to day life. Otherwise the world does not behave as we have come to know through logic, reason and empiricism.

If you are mentally and emotionally healthier then that is good. I wasn't bothered about whether God existed until it really impinged on my life (when I became a Xtian) then it became important because I have an unfortunate desire to know the truth. I am sympathetic to your journey. I am not sure where mine will take me but there are things that I want to investigate more.

I honestly wish you only the best of luck with your life. I can only be honest with you though.

Yes, I don't like big crowd occasions which is why I haven't been in that kind of meeting for a very long time. Tell me more about these quiet experiences.

I'm not sure what to tell you. Serenity with the right atmosphere was very conducive to spiritual feelings. Religious icons and music were very helpful. I liked Classical and many traditional Christian and Gospel songs. I'll be honest with you. I still listen to gospel music to get those feelings.

You know, I don't know whether I disagree with or or not - maybe you have experienced God, I certainly don't know. Maybe I am as deluded as you once were, but at the moment I can't say that.

I understand. I was in advertising for 7 years. We had a saying, perception is reality. I came to a point in my life where I wanted to know the truth rather that what I believed was the truth. Believe it or not that was long before I turned my skepticism on my faith. I didn't see my faith as something that should be analyzed.

As to whether we can understand all the causes is something that is debatable! I would be much obliged if you would point me in the direction of some good literature for my own knowledge and to see if I can create some highs - wooooh. Don't Bogart that joint, my friend. Actually I would be interested to compare these new experiences with my old ones.[/quote] Absolutely. I'll dig up some stuff.

Thanks,

RandFan

 

[The Atheist]

Don't do that. One warning. That was it. M'kay?

Oops! Pardonez-moi, most Welsh blokes don't object to that! I'll stick to Capel.

 

[The Atheist]

Is atheism a philosophy? If not, why not?

Nah, it's a way of life.

 

[hammegk]

You must fancy yourself a laugh-a-minute. That answer is laughable, anyway.

 

[The Atheist]

You must fancy yourself a laugh-a-minute. That answer is laughable, anyway.

Thought you'd like that one!

 

[hammegk]

Yeah, we can just mark it up as 'evasion noted'... philosopher.

 

[The Atheist]

Yeah, we can just mark it up as 'evasion noted'... philosopher.

No, I'm not evading anything.

This will get us right back to the "not collecting stamps is a hobby" argument. I just don't see being an atheist as a philosophy. It's a simple position that there is no god. Let's have a look at "philosophy":

1. the rational investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, or conduct.
2. any of the three branches, namely natural philosophy, moral philosophy, and metaphysical philosophy, that are accepted as composing this study.
3. a system of philosophical doctrine: the philosophy of Spinoza.
4. the critical study of the basic principles and concepts of a particular branch of knowledge, esp. with a view to improving or reconstituting them: the philosophy of science.
5. a system of principles for guidance in practical affairs.
6. a philosophical attitude, as one of composure and calm in the presence of troubles or annoyances.

Atheism can certainly fit within that framework, but it doesn't need to.

Point 1 - what "truths" are being considered by atheists? None - study of myths is not philosophy.

3, nope

4, nope

5, nope

6, nope

Leaving "metaphysical philosophy" I don't believe the simple statement, "there is no god" meets that as a genuine philosophy. It's an arguable point, but as Capel has pointed out, it's so obvious that no real thinking is needed.

 

[hammegk]

I prefer Wiki

Philosophy is a field of study in which people question, and create theories about, the nature of reality. It includes diverse subfields, such as aesthetics, epistemology, ontology, ethics, logic, metaphysics, and law. Philosophers concern themselves with such fundamental and mysterious topics as the existence or absence of a divine being, the nature of being and the universe, the pursuit of truth, the nature of consciousness, and the morality of actions.

Whether you base your worldview more, or less, on atheism, is up to you.

 

[Ginarley]

"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that may never be questioned." Anon.

I like these definitions best

ETA:

Just found these on WikiQuote lol:

"Philosophy is to the real world as masturbation is to sex." ~ Karl Marx
"Philosophy is the peculiarly stubborn attempt to think clearly." ~ William James
"Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing." ~ Ambrose Bierce

 

[The Atheist]

"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that may never be questioned." Anon.

I like these definitions best

ETA:

Just found these on WikiQuote lol:

"Philosophy is to the real world as masturbation is to sex." ~ Karl Marx
"Philosophy is the peculiarly stubborn attempt to think clearly." ~ William James
"Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing." ~ Ambrose Bierce

Well done! That's spot on.

 

[Mr Clingford]

They likely don't think much about their religion or they are incapable of understanding logic and contradiction or their beliefs are so vague and vacuous that they are mostly meaningless.

Do they believe in a personal god or are the more toward the Deist end of the scale? Do they see the Bible as largely allegorical and having little if anything to do with God? Do they reject the notion that God had his son killed to protect his children from his wrath?

I have known and know intelligent thoughtful Xtians because I seek them out and I have not found them difficult to find. THey would believe in a personal God, believe that the Bible is a differing collection of different styles of writings concerned (not wholly concerned) with a portion of humanity's encounterings with God and trying to make some sense of them so the Bible does have something to do with God. They (and I) most certainly reject what is known as Penal Substitutionary Atonement, but as that is just one idea amongst many Xtian ideas of the atonement that doesn't make us not Xtian at all.

I honestly wish you only the best of luck with your life. I can only be honest with you though.

Thank you. I would hope for nothing less - my ears are not that stoppered.

I'm not sure what to tell you. Serenity with the right atmosphere was very conducive to spiritual feelings. Religious icons and music were very helpful. I liked Classical and many traditional Christian and Gospel songs. I'll be honest with you. I still listen to gospel music to get those feelings.

I find it interesting that you still listen to that kind of music to produce those feelings as I suspect that I might do something similar.

I understand. I was in advertising for 7 years. We had a saying, perception is reality. I came to a point in my life where I wanted to know the truth rather that what I believed was the truth. Believe it or not that was long before I turned my skepticism on my faith. I didn't see my faith as something that should be analyzed.

I think that I have always seen my faith as something to be analysed because I wanted to believe what is true.

I'll dig up some stuff.

Thanks,

RandFan

Thank you.

I haven't mentioned yet one experience which I have found interesting to ponder - perhaps you have had something similar? I was in a prayer group of about 5 or 6 people and people prayed out loud on various subjects. At that time I was more able, I would have to provisionally say, to 'hear' some words that God wanted to be prayed (Yeah, I know it sounds very woo, but bear with me). When this bloke started praying out loud the exact same words came into my mind at the moment he said them; it was as though I thought the words and he spoke them. I think he spoke only a few sentences at the most but I found it quite striking. I have not experienced anything like it before or since. This is why I wonder a bit about science not having discovered stuff because maybe there is no God and our minds were somehow in sync?

I have considered various questions about this and answered them as best I can. No, I didn't hear the words and then think I thought them at the same time. Yes, it is possible that it is just an amazing coincidence that we were thinking exactly the same sentences at exactly the same time in exactly the same order. I have found this to be an interesting phenomenon because it not just one that occured solely in my own mind because it involved the other bloke too. In addition I didn't know the bloke so I had no knowledge of his previous thoughts and speech patterns.

 

[Mr Clingford]

This smacks of ... something sad. You've read my posts.

What do you mean? Just say it. You introduced the term 'warm and fuzzies' in relation to my experiences so I think it is reasonable to ask what you mean by it. Because the way the term has been used in my conversations with others is different to the way you appear to be using it. I try to avoid emotional rides in my spiritual life.

Philosophy at its best - "What do we mean by "obvious? What do we mean by "we"? What do mean by "mean"?

Define "obvious"? You do see the problem there, don't you?

Some people fail to find it obvious that if Mystic Meg has clues to the winning lottery numbers she's not going to be telling them about it. Let us speak of such people no more.

I was asking you about your own conceptual framework with which you view the world, which I think could be called philosophy.

You see, myself and others find it obvious that God could very well exist. You say no and I say yes; no, yes, no, yes. Well, that doesn't get us very far which is I asked what you understand by the term.

That would be a failure on your part, since you've been trying to get across to us something of your nature and beliefs, have you not? What comes across to me is nothing terribly special, nothing I haven't heard before. Your opinion might be different, but if that were true it poses some questions about a god that is so selective that I've never come across anyone touched by it before. After all, I'm in my fifties, I've been around and I've met a lot of different folk. I'm still meeting them, I was discussing religion with a Malaysian Catholic student recently. Not much meeting of minds there, I must confess. pun intended

My opinion's are nothing special or out of the ordinary; just because you haven't encountered any black swans doesn't mean that they don't exist.

Again with the pre-emption. I know the swamp I walk in, and wariness is my watchword. Well, one of them.

I think I got fed up with you pre-empting me; doesn't mean I should have followed suit.

Or this god might be a right bastard who enjoys messing with people's minds. After all, they couldn't know they were being messed with. No-one can claim that they can't be fooled by an infinite god.

Absolutely, I say this myself.

Don't make the mistake of trying to lecture me. If you see me make a mistake, then step in. M'kay?

I've been trying to get you to examine your own pre-conceptions which you seem reluctant to do by calling it philosophy and not answering my questions.

As you may have discerned, I reckon I've got you pretty well pegged. If you find me brusque, well, it's what I do. I deal professionally with the Public by day, I come here by night to work off the tension.

Maybe you are making assumptions, perhaps we'll see. Ah, the Great British Public, aren't we awkward.

 

[Huntster]

......I was in a prayer group of about 5 or 6 people and people prayed out loud on various subjects. At that time I was more able, I would have to provisionally say, to 'hear' some words that God wanted to be prayed (Yeah, I know it sounds very woo, but bear with me). When this bloke started praying out loud the exact same words came into my mind at the moment he said them; it was as though I thought the words and he spoke them. I think he spoke only a few sentences at the most but I found it quite striking. I have not experienced anything like it before or since. This is why I wonder a bit about science not having discovered stuff because maybe there is no God and our minds were somehow in sync?.....

Been there, done that. Multiple times.

There's more:

Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. He fasted for forty days and forty nights, and afterwards he was hungry.

Have any of you tried that? Alone? A month? No radio, no TV, no companions, no road noise, no environmental noise at all, no interruption?

No nothing?

I've come close. I've lived in the wilderness for months, but not alone.

I've done several days alone with no outside world. The change comes fast. Three days appears to be the timeframe.

Don't believe me. Try it for yourself, if you can.

After about three days without any other human contact whatsoever, and the longer you go afterwards, things change:

* you will notice sounds that you will know you wouldn't have recognized if the radio was playing or the wife was ordering you around
* you will see nature like you never noticed before
* that "little voice" in the back of your head will become more prevalent
* you will emerge from the experience different, and there will be no "going back"

Again, don't believe me. Be skeptical. Try it yourself.

 

[Mr Clingford]

You're not bloody Rowan Williams are you?

I'm sure I've heard that exact sentence before....

Oh, you flatterer, saying I might be an intelligent, knowledgable, humble and kind man. Perhaps you have read that kind of sentence before as I am not atypical amongst certain Anglicans, but I am not aware of copying it.

(can ya just keep the hell bit, please, I get a feeling of genuine compassion when I taunt christians with it)

I haven't denied that there may be some sort of hell-thing. I am not a universalist as I wouldn't want to deny people the right or opportunity to deny God but I would be surprised if many did.

 

[Mr Clingford]

Just another unwanted 2c worth, but I'm firmly with Taffy on this one - some things are just so bleeding obvious it's dumb to question them.

We're not just talking about getting struck by lightning. The odds (for me) are somewhere in the vicinity of being struck by lightning while having sex with Michelle Pfeiffer on the deck of a 24m cruiser in the Seychelles and simultaneously hooking into a world record marlin. I'll take those odds, any day.

There is indeed a difference between a philosophical answer, that we ultimately can't know for sure about anything, and a more practical everyday answer where we have to make assumptions about life or we would never get out of bed. Practically we do have to get on with life. But one persons practical and obvious is not another person's and how do we judge who is right? Some people adopt a hardline empirical approach but that has its own assumptions, especially problems with Logical Positivism. I understand why some totally hardline empiricists dislike philosophy because it undermines their position, showing that it is based on assumptions, like every other position.

Philosophy, in my experience, tends to turn out two distinct types of people. Those who parrot someone else's philosophy and those who think far too much for their own good and end up with no idea of what, or in fact if, they think. There's a couple of strawmen for someone to set fire to! There must be a third group somewhere, but I've yet to identify anyone belonging to it.

But have I been turned out by Philosophy as I have only read it at university for a couple of years (in conjunction with Theology and some History and Philosophy of Science).

 

[hammegk]

"Philosophy is to the real world as masturbation is to sex." ~ Karl Marx

Well done! That's spot on.

So you have faith in that?

Originally Posted by Ginarley
"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that may never be questioned." Anon.

Re philosophy, I'd agree.
Re religion, some appear to question vociferously.

"Philosophy is the peculiarly stubborn attempt to think clearly." ~ William James

That's my favorite.

"Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing." ~ Ambrose Bierce

What isn't, as the universe evolves?


PS: Would someone care to assist Darat? He appears unable to form a response to the request in my sig.