Bumper sticker. . .(shudder)

[Tricky]

And that would be quite stupid, wouldn't it?

Do you think we should wage war on Allah because of what the 9/11 conspirators did in New York?

Why no. I have been trying to explain to you that it is pointless to either blame or give credit to imaginary beings, and that includes Allah. But that doesn't excuse those who use and interpret the legends about Allah to commit horrible crimes. We would be correct to say that such murderous teachings of what the imaginary being (Allah) wants them to do are evil. The religious people are the ones doing the bad (and good) things, not the God, but they are doing as they are being taught by other religious people. Just like Christianity.

It wasn't God who inspired JQJ to so behave. It was sin.

No, it was his interpretation of what God wants. Are you wise enough to claim with certainty that you know exactly what God wants? What if another Christian disagrees with you?

You know; the stuff God doesn't like?

Then sin is stronger than God, because if God was stronger, He'd get rid of it. Of course, that is assuming that God doesn't like it, an assumption that is belied by so many things in the world around us.

Yeah, but that won't do much, will it? Take atheists, for example. I think they have a screwed up concept of God, and they don't seem to agree, do they? But as long as they don't break the law, what do you do? Nothing. If they break the law, you kick their ass, religious or not.

Correct, except for one point. Atheists don't believe a "screwed up" concept of God. They have no concept of God that they believe.

And "blaming bad things on someone's concept of God" is even more foolish than blaming it on God Himself.

Incorrect. Their concept of God is something the person himself decides and their actions based on that concept are what that person decides to do. What could be more correct than blaming a person's actions on the decisions they make? Now the person could claim that they only made those bad decisions because other people (think clergy) misled them about the nature of God, but in the end, it was still their decision.

Huntster's (if we must add a name) dad didn't whup his mom because of his concept of God. Even if he tried to justify it with God, that isn't why the evil was committed.

Yes he could have, if he honestly asked his God what was the right thing to do and he imagined his God answered, "Whup her." It is the concept, or the way he imagined God to be, that led to the whupping.

The greatest gift my Dad ever gave me was my freedom. And it wasn't easy. I almost screwed it up. That's what free will is all about.

And Daddy loved me. Had faith, too.

Well what was he going to do, lock you up? I think that the gift your Dad really gave you was the tools to deal with freedom.

My mom (who also had faith) used to say, "The best parents are those who are trying as hard as they can to work themselves out of a job." Sounds like your Dad had a similar philosophy.

What I'm reading from you is far from simple.

I'm sorry. I'll try to make it easier to understand, but I don't want to make it so simple that the message is lost.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
And that would be quite stupid, wouldn't it?

Do you think we should wage war on Allah because of what the 9/11 conspirators did in New York?

Why no. I have been trying to explain to you that it is pointless to either blame or give credit to imaginary beings, and that includes Allah.

And you deny that's what Roadtoad is doing?

But that doesn't excuse those who use and interpret the legends about Allah to commit horrible crimes.

Or attempt to use Allah to justify their crimes.

We would be correct to say that such murderous teachings of what the imaginary being (Allah) wants them to do are evil.

So, Roadtoad's dad used Scripture to justify whupping his wife?

The religious people are the ones doing the bad (and good) things, not the God, but they are doing as they are being taught by other religious people. Just like Christianity.

That is a claim, it is universal claim, and it is false.

Originally Posted by Huntster
It wasn't God who inspired JQJ to so behave. It was sin.

No, it was his interpretation of what God wants.

That is possible, but I doubt it. What is clear is that often people try to justify the evil acts they commit by professing they are doing God's will. It is usually a lie, not an interpretation.

Are you wise enough to claim with certainty that you know exactly what God wants?

Not even close.

What if another Christian disagrees with you?

So what? As far as I'm concerned, it's just like if an atheist, Hindu, or Muslim disagrees with me.

Originally Posted by Huntster
You know; the stuff God doesn't like?

Then sin is stronger than God, because if God was stronger, He'd get rid of it.

Not if His goal is free will and allowing us to define our own destiny.

Of course, that is assuming that God doesn't like it, an assumption that is belied by so many things in the world around us.

Since sin is committed by humans, and you are a human, you are guilty of sin and are responsible for it. Neat how these silly games work, huh?

Originally Posted by Huntster
Yeah, but that won't do much, will it? Take atheists, for example. I think they have a screwed up concept of God, and they don't seem to agree, do they? But as long as they don't break the law, what do you do? Nothing. If they break the law, you kick their ass, religious or not.

Correct, except for one point. Atheists don't believe a "screwed up" concept of God. They have no concept of God that they believe.

Since it requires awareness of God to deny that He exists, they obviously have a concept of God.

Originally Posted by Huntster
And "blaming bad things on someone's concept of God" is even more foolish than blaming it on God Himself.

Incorrect. Their concept of God is something the person himself decides and their actions based on that concept are what that person decides to do. What could be more correct than blaming a person's actions on the decisions they make? Now the person could claim that they only made those bad decisions because other people (think clergy) misled them about the nature of God, but in the end, it was still their decision.

Thank you for writing the words for me. Attempts to pawn the decision on clergy, God, others, "the-devil-made-me-do-it", etc, ad nauseum, only work with folks like yourself. It doesn't cut it with me.

Originally Posted by Huntster
Huntster's (if we must add a name) dad didn't whup his mom because of his concept of God. Even if he tried to justify it with God, that isn't why the evil was committed.

Yes he could have, if he honestly asked his God what was the right thing to do and he imagined his God answered, "Whup her." It is the concept, or the way he imagined God to be, that led to the whupping.

1) I didn't write "Huntster's (if we must add a name)". I used Roadtoad's name because he wrote that his dad whupped his mom. Huntster's dad never struck his wife. Not once.

2) If someone "imagines" God telling him to sin, that someone is clearly wrong.

3) Since that is true, it is incorrect to blame evil on God, and is actually counterproductive, empowering the lame excuse.

Originally Posted by Huntster
The greatest gift my Dad ever gave me was my freedom. And it wasn't easy. I almost screwed it up. That's what free will is all about.

And Daddy loved me. Had faith, too.

Well what was he going to do, lock you up?

Yup. Could have.

I think that the gift your Dad really gave you was the tools to deal with freedom.

Gave me that, too, and much, much more.

My mom (who also had faith) used to say, "The best parents are those who are trying as hard as they can to work themselves out of a job." Sounds like your Dad had a similar philosophy.

Yup, but Daddy also had many "sayings", one of which was "Kids are forever."

 

[Freethinker]

I never said He's responsible for everything bad that happens. You do.

No, I say he's imaginary. I asked you to clarify. Your beliefs are a little different than the typical Catholic, so when you make short responses, it isn't always clear what you mean.

He's responsible for instilling free will into those who act, and their actions are their own. If they are good acts, they are inspired by God. If they are bad acts, they are inspired by sin, which God opposes but allows.

Things like cancer or a tree falling on you while you are sleeping are not acts of men. I'm talking about things that happen without human intervention.

You come down with incurable cancer. The doctors send you home to die. Amazingly, you live, and the next MRI or whatever scan they do shows no cancer. The typical Christian response to this is "Glory to God! Lift up His name! He Saved me!"

My response is: He gave you the cancer to start with. You're even.

Free will or inspiration from god does not enter into this. If you praise god because he cured your cancer, you are letting him slide if you don't blame him for giving it to you to start with.

Now, to your new point about acts of men and freewill :

Then to what do you attribute good acts by atheists or those who believe in different gods? In my case, it would certainly not be inspired by the Christian god, but most who know me would say that I live in a very "Christian" manner.

I'm not sure what government and micromanagement have to with this particular diversion of the original post.

It seems to me that Matthew 10:29 says nothing happens unless it is god's will. If so, then it is clear that he is the cause of everything bad that happens.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster

I never said He's responsible for everything bad that happens. You do.

No, I say he's imaginary.

Then, if He is imaginary as you imagine, He cannot be responsible for bad things, can He?

I asked you to clarify. Your beliefs are a little different than the typical Catholic, so when you make short responses, it isn't always clear what you mean.

Stop imagining and read the words.

Originally Posted by Huntster
He's responsible for instilling free will into those who act, and their actions are their own. If they are good acts, they are inspired by God. If they are bad acts, they are inspired by sin, which God opposes but allows.

Things like cancer or a tree falling on you while you are sleeping are not acts of men.

Nor are they evil.

I'm talking about things that happen without human intervention.

Physics. Biology. Not evil.

You come down with incurable cancer. The doctors send you home to die. Amazingly, you live, and the next MRI or whatever scan they do shows no cancer. The typical Christian response to this is "Glory to God! Lift up His name! He Saved me!"

My response is: He gave you the cancer to start with. You're even.

It's life in a physical, biological world, not of the spiritual world.

Free will or inspiration from god does not enter into this. If you praise god because he cured your cancer, you are letting him slide if you don't blame him for giving it to you to start with.

I don't play the blame game. I leave that up to lawyers and politicians and those who like the game.

Now, to your new point about acts of men and freewill :

Then to what do you attribute good acts by atheists or those who believe in different gods?

Goodness.

In my case, it would certainly not be inspired by the Christian god, but most who know me would say that I live in a very "Christian" manner.

If you don't appreciate and seek glory in Christ, it isn't Christian, even though it might still be good. Yet:

John said to him, "Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us." Jesus replied, "Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me. For whoever is not against us is for us.

I'm not sure what government and micromanagement have to with this particular diversion of the original post.

Free will. If people will evil here, others will attempt to reign it by forming government, which will then micromanage everything, because government is formed of humans, who still sin, even if they are generally good people.

It seems to me that Matthew 10:29 says nothing happens unless it is god's will. If so, then it is clear that he is the cause of everything bad that happens.

Context:

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. Are not two sparrows sold for a small coin? Yet not one of them falls to the ground without your Father's knowledge. Even all the hairs of your head are counted. So do not be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

 

[Freethinker]

That is simple shirking of responsibility.

Belief in god is shirking of responsibility. I alone am responsible for what I do.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
That is simple shirking of responsibility.

Belief in god is shirking of responsibility.

No, it's not. Blaming God is shirking responsibility.

I alone am responsible for what I do.

Yup. It is the same for us all.

 

[Freethinker]

Quote:
And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. Are not two sparrows sold for a small coin? Yet not one of them falls to the ground without your Father's knowledge. Even all the hairs of your head are counted. So do not be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

Depends on the version of the bible:

Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
Quote:
And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. Are not two sparrows sold for a small coin? Yet not one of them falls to the ground without your Father's knowledge. Even all the hairs of your head are counted. So do not be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

Depends on the version of the bible:

Quote:
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows

I consistently quote and link the New American Bible, the North American English version authorized by the USSCB, because I'm Catholic.

Which version have you quoted and not linked?

 

[Freethinker]

Nor are they evil.



Physics. Biology. Not evil.

I didn't say evil, you are changing the discussion by veering off distinguishing evil from bad, when I clearly made that distinction when you veered off trying to change it from talking about acts of god to freewill. It would be far easier to see where you are going or where you are coming from with a subject if you didn't respond to a question about acts of god with a non sequitur discussion of freewill.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster

Nor are they evil.

Physics. Biology. Not evil.

I didn't say evil, you are changing the discussion by veering off distinguishing evil from bad, when I clearly made that distinction when you veered off trying to change it from talking about acts of god to freewill.

I have no intention to allow you to steer me into the corner of your choosing. God has no concern for your definition or focus on "bad." If you think a piano falling on you is "bad", I'd agree. But it may or may not be evil, depending on if it fell out of a window through unavoidable error, negligence, or intent.

Biological entities die. It's unavoidable. Even Christ died. Get over it. I'm discussing the spirit, and you will not corral me into a stupid discussion over whether it's good or "bad" for your physical body to die.

It would be far easier to see where you are going or where you are coming from with a subject if you didn't respond to a question about acts of god with a non sequitur discussion of freewill.

I have no illusion that you're going to "get it", and frankly don't give a damn if you do or not. That's up to you.

I don't have much hope, but you can always surprise me.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Shouldn't that be "less than the sum of the parts"?

Taken in chapters/verses/quotes, the bible can seem to make a lot of sense. Viewed objectively, as a whole and complete work, it's rubbish of the lowest order.

Have you read it cover to cover? Have you studied it? I find it makes a lot more sense taken as a whole than it does taken in excerpts, but I have an edge thanks to the modern day, the printing press, and the Internet: I have access to a lot of scholarship that plumbs the depths of the anthology that is called "The Bible" and that allows for greater contextual understanding.

All by itself, I admit, the Bible can be confusing at times.

DR

 

[Ossai]

The Atheist

I do like that - it's very close to what Huntster's saying. Why would god choose to interfere? If he gave/cursed us with free will, we alone are responsible for not only ourselves, but also the rest of mankind.

Which also means god is meaningless since we are responsible. Every time god interferes, miracles, healings, etc. god is subverting the freewill and responsibility of those involved.

Huntster

And with only the responsibility to make the right decisions for ourselves, and many of us can't seem to do that well most of the time, who are we to judge when God should intervene and when He should not?

We are, from your standpoint, made in god’s image. God is getting old and senile and we’ve got to step forward, like good children, and take responsibility for out ailing parents.

....If a god knows what is going to happen and then will judge you on that there is no free-will.....

Why not?

News flash, it’s not our god. You’ve got to explain a tri-omni god and reconcile freewill. Two millennia and the best Christians have come up with is to remove the tri-omni. That’s nice and all, but once removed you can’t go back and again claim a tri-omni god.

And that explanation is that other people screwed him around. Sorry, I still don't get it. If John Q. Jerk screws me around, why blame God for it?

Because Christian still claim the tri-omni god. With a tri-omni god there is no free will (there may be an illusion of such). No freewill means everyone is acting out what god wants.

It wasn't God who inspired JQJ to so behave. It was sin. You know; the stuff God doesn't like?

God is sin.

No, I don't believe Jesus was a socialist.

Wrong again.

Acts 4:31-37
As they prayed, the place where they were gathered shook, and they were all filled with the holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.
The community of believers was of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common.
With great power the apostles bore witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great favor was accorded them all.
There was no needy person among them, for those who owned property or houses would sell them, bring the proceeds of the sale,
and put them at the feet of the apostles, and they were distributed to each according to need.
Thus Joseph, also named by the apostles Barnabas (which is translated "son of encouragement"), a Levite, a Cypriot by birth,
sold a piece of property that he owned, then brought the money and put it at the feet of the apostles.

Darth Rotor

The human assumption that underlies all of this hair splitting seems to be that God MUST act "rationally," as humans define "rationally." Why that is required strikes me as a bit of human arrogance. Why is that assumption in operation so often?

Easy, man created god in man’s own image. Reverse if you want the Christian answer.

2. What Christians do that? Sounds suspiciously like "bearing false witness" but I'd be interested to hear the answer as I may not be seeing what you are referring to, due to brevity.

Ever attended a mega-church. They’re all over the place in the SE USA.

Ossai

 

[Darth Rotor]

Then sin is stronger than God, because if God was stronger, He'd get rid of it

Not quite. If Tricky were God, Tricky would use his Omnipotence to get rid of sin. Attempting to divine the intent of humans is tough enough, to divine the intent of "The Divine" a bit tougher.

Of course, that is assuming that God doesn't like it, an assumption that is belied by so many things in the world around us.

What if God finds sin useful as a means, not an end?

Correct, except for one point. Atheists don't believe a "screwed up" concept of God. They have no concept of God that they believe.

Atheists, as I understand it, have diverse sets of beliefs. For example, not all Atheists are Communists, but some are. Theists, the comparable general case, also have diverse beliefs.

I think that the gift your Dad really gave you was the tools to deal with freedom.

That is tricky, isn't it Tricky? (IIRC, you have kids.)

DR

 

[Tricky]

Not quite. If Tricky were God, Tricky would use his Omnipotence to get rid of sin. Attempting to divine the intent of humans is tough enough, to divine the intent of "The Divine" a bit tougher.

What if God finds sin useful as a means, not an end?

Then one can hardly claim that God hates sin if He finds it a useful tool. I'm not trying to divine the Divine since I don't believe in one, I'm just trying to demonstrate how an omnipotent God that hates sin but requires sin is a logical contradiction.

Atheists, as I understand it, have diverse sets of beliefs. For example, not all Atheists are Communists, but some are. Theists, the comparable general case, also have diverse beliefs.

LOL. Yeah, they are diverse. But the class of "Atheists who believe in God" is, to say the least, rather small. It doesn't take long to call roll. Huntster argues (incorrectly IMO) that you must first believe in God before you can deny Him.

That is tricky, isn't it Tricky?

Tricky indeed. Sometimes you aren't successful in "working yourself out of a job". My sister was still living at home when Mom died. Huntster's dad expects the parenting job to continue too, or that is how I would interpret his "kids are forever" philosophy.

(IIRC, you have kids.)

YRI (You Recall Incorrectly). But heck, it is hard enough to keep up with the children of relatives, much less those of anonymous forumites.

 

[Freethinker]

I have no intention to allow you to steer me into the corner of your choosing.

If you are just talking to yourself, why quote other posters? You are free to talk about whatever you want, but there is no benefit in your continually pointless changes of subject and non-answers. Spend all of your days babbling about an imaginary spirit world populated by god and the saints and Tinkerbell if that is your pleasure. I'll concentrate my short time in existence on the real world.

 

[The Atheist]

I do know that if the Christian concept of God exists, it does not fit any definition of "loving" that I could accept.

When a man commits murder or rape, the perpetrator is clearly someone's son and often brother, grandson, father, uncle and cousin. Let's take a murderer who came from a loving - doting even - family, yet along the way, as young men do, the man gets totally drunk the day his girlfriend of four years was found in bed with his best friend. Something snaps and he kills the friend.

His family stick by him. Are they a "loving" family?

I can even quote you a family in NZ where one brother is still locked up for double rape/murder while another brother is a respected businessman and [former] Member of Parliament! The MP guy still loves his brother, while obviously not forgiving him his crimes. Is he wrong?

 

[Tricky]

And you deny that's what Roadtoad is doing?

I cannot speak for Roadtoad, but it does not appear to me that he is blaming God, but rather those who believe in a God with hateful characteristics.

Or attempt to use Allah to justify their crimes.

You mean like some Christians use Christ to justify their crimes?

So, Roadtoad's dad used Scripture to justify whupping his wife?

Again, I can't say, but it appears from his stories that Roadtoad's dad thought he was doing what God wanted, based on either direct or indirect scriptural interpretation.

That is a claim, it is universal claim, and it is false.

It is my belief, not a claim. I believe that people are responsible for both the good and the bad that they do. I neither blame nor credit God. However, I will say that it is possible for people to influence other people to do bad things in any number of ways. I think you would agree with that.

That is possible, but I doubt it. What is clear is that often people try to justify the evil acts they commit by professing they are doing God's will. It is usually a lie, not an interpretation.

you've already agreed that you can't even begin to know exactly what God wants. It may be possible that what you think is evil isn't really. I can give you examples if you like.

So what? As far as I'm concerned, it's just like if an atheist, Hindu, or Muslim disagrees with me.

Then what you call "sin" is nothing more than your personal opinion.

Not if His goal is free will and allowing us to define our own destiny.

If that is the case, then He doesn't hate sin. He knows it is necessary.

Since sin is committed by humans, and you are a human, you are guilty of sin and are responsible for it. Neat how these silly games work, huh?

If you do good then you are responsible for it. God has nothing to do with it. You wouldn't change the rules in the middle of this "silly game", would you?

Since it requires awareness of God to deny that He exists, they obviously have a concept of God.

I am aware of many concepts of God, but I do not believe in any of them. So I do not have a personal concept of God and I am not motivated to act by any personal concept of God.

Thank you for writing the words for me. Attempts to pawn the decision on clergy, God, others, "the-devil-made-me-do-it", etc, ad nauseum, only work with folks like yourself. It doesn't cut it with me.

It is religious people who pawn the decision on God, the Devil etc. I blame only humans. However, as I mentioned before, it is possible for one human to influence others to do bad (or good). If a person started filling your child's head with wicked lies, would you blame your child? Well let me tell you. Adults can be influenced by wicked people too.

1) I didn't write "Huntster's (if we must add a name)". I used Roadtoad's name because he wrote that his dad whupped his mom. Huntster's dad never struck his wife. Not once.

Except that you didn't write Roadtoad's name, you wrote mine. I now realize that it was a typo so that misunderstanding is cleared up. For the record, Tricky's dad never struck Tricky's mom either, though it was far from a perfect marriage.

2) If someone "imagines" God telling him to sin, that someone is clearly wrong.

Not clear at all, since you admit that even good people may disagree on what "sin" is. No, Huntster. In real life, nothing is quite so clear-cut.

Since that is true, it is incorrect to blame evil on God, and is actually counterproductive, empowering the lame excuse.

If it is incorrect to blame evil on God, then it is also just as incorrect to give God credit for good. Surely you can understand the fundamental logic in that?

 

[The Atheist]

Take atheists, for example. I think they have a screwed up concept of God, and they don't seem to agree, do they? But as long as they don't break the law, what do you do?

You need a "most" inbetween "take" and "atheists". I think I could ultimately convince you that I have about a 100% accurate concept of your god. In terms of mainstream christianity - RC/Anglican/Protestant churches, I think I know exactly where both your god and your church are.

I just don't like it.

This bit:

they don't seem to agree, do they?

Ya think?

 

[The Atheist]

Things like cancer or a tree falling on you while you are sleeping are not acts of men. I'm talking about things that happen without human intervention.

Now, I'd suggest if you tried to pull that kind of conflation anywhere but in here, you'd have 'em chomping on you from all sides! Fortunately, I don't give a toss about that kind of crap, so I'll just pass on that I fear, like many atheists, your guide to the christian god is slanted by seeing too many fundamental christians.

I think you'll find that Huntster's opinion is the prevailing one - the god-thing sees it all but didn't cause it all.

 

[The Atheist]

Have you read it cover to cover? Have you studied it? I find it makes a lot more sense taken as a whole than it does taken in excerpts, but I have an edge thanks to the modern day, the printing press, and the Internet: I have access to a lot of scholarship that plumbs the depths of the anthology that is called "The Bible" and that allows for greater contextual understanding.

All by itself, I admit, the Bible can be confusing at times.

DR

Mate. Read from cover to cover several times, and always trying to keep it in the context of itself as well.

While my dad was totally uninterested in the church, his brother was a Reverend in the Anglican church who went on to complete a PhD in Divinity and Theology with some flash-arse pommy uni. I have two catholic-convert brothers who like to think that they're bible scholars as well. They are, but they're a pair of twats as well.

It's certainly confusing, but I'm long past the confusion, I'm pretty sure. I use the New Advent bible, which I think is about the most official version there is, taking it democratically - being more left-footers than any other type of christian, by a long margin!

Now, you're a sneaky bugger; I hadn't had you pegged as a christian at all. I've seen you post a lot of stuff, but nothing pro-christian until now, that I've seen, at least and I do read yours when I see them. I've enjoyed your posts, you seem to be one of the more insightful and balanced posters and I'm a little surprised at finding out you're batting for the other team. No problem with that, I have lots of gay mates, too.

I'd be bold enough to presume that, with your attitude, you'd be a life-long christian rather than a more-recent convert? Don't tell me that the only two non-hypocritical christians on the net are both in a sceptics' forum?!!??!!