Bumper sticker. . .(shudder)

[Darth Rotor]

Argue with the one who wrote the quote, and it is still true.

Whose who do not learn from the pass or bound to repeat it.

Paul

FWIW, Paul, while your version should read "Those who do not learn from the past are bound to repeat it" Santayana is often translated thusly:

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it

The power/responsibility saying not only isn't true, Paul, it is fallacious reasoning, as B does not necessarily follow from A. (Yes, I know, it is an aphorism, an adage, and perhaps a statement of an ideal.) Your unproven, and unsupported assumption attempting to hold up the statement as true is a universally assumed, agreed, and acted upon -- by all who weild power -- linkage between the two that scales up.

My point one ref is to human history, which even modest study shows does not find that linkage to hold as a common rule.

Tamerlane for fifty, Alex.

The more accurate adage regarding power and humans, from Lord Acton, is that

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely."

DR

 

[Paulhoff]

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it

I always disagreed with this one, remember does not mean anything if one does not learn from it. If you have children this means even more.

Paul

 

[Paulhoff]

So god doesn’t have responsibility, he gets off the hook again, go figure.

Paul

 

[The Atheist]

With great power comes great flexibility. Responsibility is an option, not a necessary outcome, of power. For you to assert that they come as a packaged deal is

1) To ignore the lessons of history
2) Your own assumption, unsupported

DR

I do like that - it's very close to what Huntster's saying. Why would god choose to interfere? If he gave/cursed us with free will, we alone are responsible for not only ourselves, but also the rest of mankind.

Thanks to that, how many "puppet" atheists do you reckon there are? Those who embrace atheism because of the release of commitment to their god's requirement for selflessness?

 

[The Atheist]

So god doesn’t have responsibility, he gets off the hook again, go figure.

Mate, if you've only just figured that out, where the hell have you been?

 

[Huntster]

....If a god knows what is going to happen and then will judge you on that there is no free-will.....

Why not?

With great power comes great responsibility.

And with only the responsibility to make the right decisions for ourselves, and many of us can't seem to do that well most of the time, who are we to judge when God should intervene and when He should not?

 

[Tricky]

So what do the actions of his father, mother, etc have to do with God?

I can't believe you. You quoted the answer in your post, but you seem not to have read it at all. They have nothing to do God because Roadtoad doesn't believe God exists. Really Huntster, I expected a bit more from you than this knee-jerk, reply into which you obviously put no thought whatsoever.

And while you're working on improving your writing skills, have a look at pronoun agreement. Your reply looks like you're asking about God's mum and dad. How are they doing, by the way?

 

[Tricky]

I do like that - it's very close to what Huntster's saying. Why would god choose to interfere? If he gave/cursed us with free will, we alone are responsible for not only ourselves, but also the rest of mankind.

Then how does God enter the equation at all? What is the observable difference between a God which doesn't interfere at all versus no God?

Thanks to that, how many "puppet" atheists do you reckon there are? Those who embrace atheism because of the release of commitment to their god's requirement for selflessness?

As far as I can tell, there are none, at least none I've ever met. All the ones that I know do not believe such a committment exists. They take personal responsibility for their actions. Of course, there are greedy and selfish atheists just as there are greedy and selfish Christians. At least, though, the atheists don't quote some Bible verse and claim that their greedy selfishness is "doing God's will".

 

[Darth Rotor]

Then how does God enter the equation at all? What is the observable difference between a God which doesn't interfere at all versus no God?

The human assumption that underlies all of this hair splitting seems to be that God MUST act "rationally," as humans define "rationally." Why that is required strikes me as a bit of human arrogance. Why is that assumption in operation so often?

1. there are greedy and selfish atheists just as there are greedy and selfish Christians.
2. least, though, the atheists don't quote some Bible verse and claim that their greedy selfishness is "doing God's will".

1. Amen, brother, preach it.
2. What Christians do that? Sounds suspiciously like "bearing false witness" but I'd be interested to hear the answer as I may not be seeing what you are referring to, due to brevity.

DR

 

[Paulhoff]

If the outcome is known, there is no free-will, if there is punishment there is no free-will. If you can’t understand this, that is not my problem.

Paul

 

[The Atheist]

And with only the responsibility to make the right decisions for ourselves, and many of us can't seem to do that well most of the time, who are we to judge when God should intervene and when He should not?

Yeah. Have a look at how many dysfunctional families there are and see how some kids are brought up. (or not) If people often can't figure out what to do with kids sitting and staring them in the face, how can they comprehend what god/s should, or would want to, do with an entire species.

 

[Huntster]

I do like that - it's very close to what Huntster's saying. Why would god choose to interfere? If he gave/cursed us with free will, we alone are responsible for not only ourselves, but also the rest of mankind.

Thanks to that, how many "puppet" atheists do you reckon there are? Those who embrace atheism because of the release of commitment to their god's requirement for selflessness?

Many, just like with many of us Christians who fail in their commitment to God's requirement for selflessness.

The difference is that many of the Christians fail in regret for their sins, faith in God's capacity to forgive, and love for that forgiving sacrifice of Christ.

 

[The Atheist]

Then how does God enter the equation at all? What is the observable difference between a God which doesn't interfere at all versus no God?

Hmm, back to that old conundrum of "observable" and "proof". Why bother?

As far as I can tell, there are none, at least none I've ever met. All the ones that I know do not believe such a committment exists. They take personal responsibility for their actions. Of course, there are greedy and selfish atheists just as there are greedy and selfish Christians. At least, though, the atheists don't quote some Bible verse and claim that their greedy selfishness is "doing God's will".

You can't think of anyone who puts love of money before love of god?

In defence of christians, I have to state that I think a higher percentage of them have a more widely-developed "public service" ethic than atheists, many of whom I find extremely selfish. (i'm not including anyone in this forum in that comment, I don't know any of the atheists here well enough to comment on either their cultural awareness or selfishness.)

 

[Tricky]

The human assumption that underlies all of this hair splitting seems to be that God MUST act "rationally," as humans define "rationally." Why that is required strikes me as a bit of human arrogance. Why is that assumption in operation so often?

Christianity itself foists this myth. They have God do "rational" things, like saving believers, answering prayers and the like. Indeed, they even say "God is love", yet if God's love is totally irrational compared to human love, how can you even call it "love"? God, the way Christians describe Him, behaves rationally some times and irrationally at other times. His rational moments, they call "God's love". His irrational moments they write off as our own failure to understand His logic. They like to have it both ways.

2. What Christians do that? Sounds suspiciously like "bearing false witness" but I'd be interested to hear the answer as I may not be seeing what you are referring to, due to brevity.

One example I can give is that wealthy Christians often cite "the parable of the talents" as justification for their accumulation of wealth. They conveniently ignore all the other admonitions Jesus gave against accumulating wealth.

 

[Darth Rotor]

If the outcome is known, there is no free-will, if there is punishment there is no free-will. If you can’t understand this, that is not my problem.

Paul

You fail to understand that people often choose to do something, even though there is punishment. That is a choice made, an exercise of will. The evidence is all around you in the choices people make each day, sometimes aware of consequences, sometimes unaware of the consequences of their choices.

We have been this way before, Johnny One Note. Your inability (unwillingness, more likely) to articulate more than bumper sticker tripe is an obstacle to conversation.

DR

 

[The Atheist]

[... if there is punishment there is no free-will...

Punishment? What punishment?

 

[Paulhoff]

Amazing to see how much people know about something they have never known in person like a so-called god, it is just like it comes right out of their head, hey, it does.

Paul

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
So what do the actions of his father, mother, etc have to do with God?

I can't believe you. You quoted the answer in your post, but you seem not to have read it at all. They have nothing to do God because Roadtoad doesn't believe God exists.

If Roadtoad doesn't believe God exists, why would he write this?:

This is not a God I can love. Because this is not love. It is abuse. And after being physically, sexually, and emotionally abused throughout my childhood, I know what abuse is. And I am not taking it anymore.

I gave up on the Church. Their "god" was hurting me, and I refused to accept it anymore. And at this stage of my life, I question whether He even exists, because if you have that much power, that much authority, why would you need to break and crush those beneath you? Those are not the actions of a God. Those are the actions of an abuser. I decline the abuse..

Really Huntster, I expected a bit more from you than this knee-jerk, reply into which you obviously put no thought whatsoever.

Frankly, I think they're good questions, and you're the one flicking your standard "how can we hate something that doesn't exist" drivel without thinking.

And while you're working on improving your writing skills, have a look at pronoun agreement. Your reply looks like you're asking about God's mum and dad. How are they doing, by the way?I can't believe you. You quoted the answer in your post, but you seem not to have read it at all. They have nothing to do God because Roadtoad doesn't believe God exists.

That's not what his post says.

 

[Paulhoff]

Punishment? What punishment?

Geeeeee, hell.

Paul

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
And with only the responsibility to make the right decisions for ourselves, and many of us can't seem to do that well most of the time, who are we to judge when God should intervene and when He should not?

Yeah. Have a look at how many dysfunctional families there are and see how some kids are brought up. (or not) If people often can't figure out what to do with kids sitting and staring them in the face, how can they comprehend what god/s should, or would want to, do with an entire species.

I'd like to say "Amen, Brother!", but considering who you are, I'll settle with "Right On, Brother!"