Hamas Must Recognise Israel

[Darat]

Sounds reasonable to me, Darat. But, er, how much land are ya' talking about here? I mean, I think YOU are reasonable, and THEY are not. This slope sounds very slippery to me. Once the Hamas camel sticks its nose under Israel's tent, Israel could get chipped away and become just an idea, or worse, a memory, with no land to it at all.

...snip...

You have to start somewhere - a reversal of the "Israel must be destroyed" is the obvious first step.

 

[Darat]

If it is reasonable for Israeli self assurance to have boundries defined on what is recognizes as "Israel" is it not unreasonable to extend the same to palestinians?

...snip...

Not quite - the Palestianaians have yet to actually attemtp to establish a "state" in the land that Isreal does not permenenantly occupy i.e. outside teh wall. The Palestiaian peopel could if they wished to do so create a working "state" as the Isreali's originally did however to date the Palestinans have not done so.

Demanding that Israel be recognized is absolutely reasonable...I would say essential... but as you put it, the fear of "get chipped away and become just an idea, or worse, a memory, with no land to it at all." Is what we are expecting palestinians to accept if they are required to recognise a state of "Israel" with no boundries to what that nation is....are we asking them to recognize and accept an undefined "Israel" and getting upset when they don't?

The situation is not symmetrical. Israel already exists and it has the means to determine and then enforce what it wishes its borders to be and in principle Israel is not against a Palestinian neighboring state. The only option the Palestinian people have is 1) create a true state 2) then negotiate to try and get more land from Israel for their state.

There is no other option, they can not militarily defeat the Israeli's and thus re-define their borders.

Argentina recognizes the UK is state but disagrees with the UK about what the borders of the UK state should, Spain recognizes the UK state but disagrees with the UK as to the borders of the UK. The Palestinians could quite easily find themselves in the same position as Spain and Argentina does, however they choose not to.

Which of these 2 Israels do we want them to recognise..or do we want them to recognize any form of Israel that we may choose in the future?

The Palestinians should recognize reality.

 

[zenith-nadir]

The United Nations, European Union, Russian Federation, United States, Egypt, Jordan all agree that Hamas must recognize Israel with it's current borders. This includes all past mideast peace agreements which define quite clearly the current status of Israel current borders. There is no debate. That is what Hamas must do to have the support of the international community.

Mahmoud Zahar said Hamas will never recognize Israel's right to exist.

The ruling Palestinian Hamas party will never recognize Israel, the ISNA news agency quoted Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal as saying Saturday in Teheran.

"Absolutely, Hamas will never recognize Israel and will not halt its resistance as long as there is occupation," Hamas deputy leader Moussa Abu Marzouk said.

Palestinian PM declares We'll never recognize Israel.

 

[Gurdur]

The Palestinians are extremely good at cutting their own throats.

For decades Arafat's faction refused to accept the existence of Israel. They never won a thing with that. Eventually, they formally accepted Israel and Israel's right to exist, even though they disagreed on the borders, and they started actually getting somewhere, winning things, accomplishing things.

Now Hamas refuses to accept Israel. And fails --- absolutely fails --- to gain a single thing through such intransignance.

Talk about self-handicapping idiocy.

Recognising Israel is still compatible with arguing about borders. Refusing the right of Israel to exist is frankly racist as well as under the circumstances being extremely stupid. Recognition of both Israel and a coexisting Palestinian state is vital, and also the only way forward.

 

[RandFan]

Excellent thread. My hat's of to you fool.

I have opted out of most Israeli-Palestinian threads because I see little chance of making headway in the discussion which is why I try to stay out of most gun threads also but I seem to get drawn in anyway.

In any event, I can't add much to what hasn't already been contributed by Darat. A statement by Hammas that they would be willing to recognize Israel under reasonable conditions could have wide reaching implications. It's just too good to actually imagine that it could happen. The current position of Hammas is a non-starter.

 

[steverino]

The situation is not symmetrical. Israel already exists.

Wonderful and succinct, Darat.

It also seems to me that for Israel's foes to destroy her, or at least threaten to, it is logical that they first, in a twisted way, must "recognize" her and accept the borders that she has currently established. That way, Israel, the boogy-man, is a viable enemy worthy of all of their fuss. Her foes, therefore, are indeed recognizing her by giving her the gravitas needed to unify theses factions who indeed hate one another.

 

[The Fool]

The United Nations, European Union, Russian Federation, United States, Egypt, Jordan all agree that Hamas must recognize Israel with it's current borders. This includes all past mideast peace agreements which define quite clearly the current status of Israel current borders. There is no debate. That is what Hamas must do to have the support of the international community.

Mahmoud Zahar said Hamas will never recognize Israel's right to exist.

The ruling Palestinian Hamas party will never recognize Israel, the ISNA news agency quoted Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal as saying Saturday in Teheran.

"Absolutely, Hamas will never recognize Israel and will not halt its resistance as long as there is occupation," Hamas deputy leader Moussa Abu Marzouk said.

Palestinian PM declares We'll never recognize Israel.

I really would like to see the "current borders" you talk about. Can you point me to the description of them that you are referring to?

 

[steverino]

I really would like to see the "current borders" you talk about. Can you point me to the description of them that you are referring to?

Don't get your panties in a bunch, The Fool. Israel's current borders do not include Ayers Rock or Tasmania. You're safe.

 

[The Fool]

Don't get your panties in a bunch, The Fool. Israel's current borders do not include Ayers Rock or Tasmania. You're safe.

Actually, My panties are quite evenly distributed. Its just that terms like Israels "current borders" interest me....If there is (somewhere) something that describes Israels current borders" and defines where "Israel" is then I would like to see them.

If the people of the middle east need to recognize Israel, which they must.....then Israel also needs to tell the world where "Israel" is.

 

[RandFan]

Actually, My panties are quite evenly distributed. Its just that terms like Israels "current borders" interest me....If there is (somewhere) something that describes Israels current borders" and defines where "Israel" is then I would like to see them.

If the people of the middle east need to recognize Israel, which they must.....then Israel also needs to tell the world where "Israel" is.

Is there anything stopping Hamas from making a good faith offer to recognize Israel under reasonable circumstances? You seem to be wanting to put the cart before the horse. This all seems quite academic if in the end Hamas simply wants to destroy Israel.

 

[Mike B.]

Actually, My panties are quite evenly distributed. Its just that terms like Israels "current borders" interest me....If there is (somewhere) something that describes Israels current borders" and defines where "Israel" is then I would like to see them.

If the people of the middle east need to recognize Israel, which they must.....then Israel also needs to tell the world where "Israel" is.

Aren't you talking about two different things?

The recognition of Israel that is sought has nothing to do with its borders per se. It deals with the idea of recognizing a state Israel in any part of Palestine.

So to Hamas no border of Israel is acceptable because it by their view an illigetimate and illeagal state.

Your point about nobody defining the current borders is true of course, but I don't think Hamas's lack of recognition has anything to do with arguing about a hectacre here or there.

 

[The Fool]

Is there anything stopping Hamas from making a good faith offer to recognize Israel under reasonable circumstances? You seem to be wanting to put the cart before the horse. This all seems quite academic if in the end Hamas simply wants to destroy Israel.

I just can't see this as putting the cart befor the horse. If you want a statement from Hamas that Israel has the right to exist in some undefined form then this statement you want is completely meaningless. You may as well tell them that they need to promise to be "good guys" whatever that means.

If you put demands on people to do certain things how is it putting the cart defore the horse to decide what it is you are demanding they do?

There are plenty in Hamas who simply want nothing to do with any form of Israeli nation....just as there are plenty in Israel who want nothing to do with any Palestinian state in any shape size or form....Would we ever consider demanding Israel recognize a palestinian state with undefined borders? Dear Israel, we hereby demand you acknowledge the right of a state called "palestine" to exist that may or may not include Jerusalem...that may or may not send you back to the original borders allocated by the british partition....what you actually are agreeing to will be decided after you agree....agreed?

 

[The Fool]

Your point about nobody defining the current borders is true of course, but I don't think Hamas's lack of recognition has anything to do with arguing about a hectacre here or there.

no its not about a hectare or two its about the feasability of a palestinian state. Earlier in the thread I posted 2 alternate versions of "Israel" one precludes a viable palestinian state. Is it too much to ask to take that off the table before demands are made on Palestinians to stop taking positions that make peace impossible? Lets lead the way eh? Why can't we say to them that it is required they recognise Israels right to exist in peace because we guarantee that what is left over after we finally decide what "israel" is will be something that could make a viable state.

Lets let them see what they are required to accept.

 

[Gurdur]

The Fool, just what is stopping Hamas from recognising Israel's right to exist? No-one is demanding they accept the borders as settled; so just why can't Hamas be sensible and recognise Israel's right to exist as a state?

 

[RandFan]

I just can't see this as putting the cart before the horse. If you want a statement from Hamas that Israel has the right to exist in some undefined form then this statement you want is completely meaningless. You may as well tell them that they need to promise to be "good guys" whatever that means.

Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel. Hamas is the ruling party of Palestine. Thats a non-starter. No diplomacy can take place. Nothing can take place.

If you put demands on people to do certain things how is it putting the cart defore the horse to decide what it is you are demanding they do?

If you and I are neighbors and we are having a dispute nothing can be done as long as you have sworn to kill me. A third neighbor telling me to take down my lights because it pisses of the neighbor who wants to kill me is a waste of time. The neighbor who wants to kill me must first stop wanting me dead otherwise everything else is just academic.

There are plenty in Hamas who simply want nothing to do with any form of Israeli nation....just as there are plenty in Israel who want nothing to do with any Palestinian state in any shape size or form....Would we ever consider demanding Israel recognize a palestinian state with undefined borders?

Excuse me? The controlling party in Israel is not calling for the destruction of Palestine. You are trying to equate the two. They don't equate. I'm happy to condemn Israel for any and all atrocities but saying that they are the same is disingenuous. A dialog cannot be started so long as Hamas controls Palestine and Hamas is calling for the destruction of Israel.

For whatever problems the Israelis have they have demonstrated that they are willing to have a dialog and have recognized that Palestinians are entitled to rights. Israel has demonstrated that they can negotiate in good faith.

Dear Israel, we hereby demand you acknowledge the right of a state called "palestine" to exist that may or may not include Jerusalem...that may or may not send you back to the original borders allocated by the british partition....what you actually are agreeing to will be decided after you agree....agreed?

This is not at all representative of what I'm saying.

Negotiations happen all over the world all of the time. It starts by one side saying to the other we are willing to compromise. Hamas could say that they are willing to negotiate and possibly recognize Israels right to exist under the right circumstances. That is how negotiations begin. This is how reasonable and rational people solve problems all of the time. First there must be the possibility of negotiations.

Israel has demonstrated that they are to some extent willing to compromise. Hamas has demonstrated that they are not.

See the problem?

 

[The Fool]

The Fool, just what is stopping Hamas from recognising Israel's right to exist? No-one is demanding they accept the borders as settled; so just why can't Hamas be sensible and recognise Israel's right to exist as a state?

once again, if you think they should recognize Israels right to exist as a state then what state are we talking about? Would you demand they recognise the right to exist of an "israel" that occupies all the original mandate?

I would like to establish my own Nation in the middle east, I will call it "foolistan". I want the US, the UN, the EU and the boyscouts of America to recognise it. What do you imagine would be thier first question to allow them to make a decision? My guess is the question would be something like "Foolistan? where the hell is Foolistan? show me a map of this place" I could then show them a map wave my finger around some general areas and tell them its sort of around here somewhere and that the exact details will be worked out after they agree...what chance?

Currently Israel is recognised by many nations who are happy not to be concerned about the borders...I would imagine it would be very different if the disputed territory was thier national territory. Can you imagine the US recognizing "foolistan" if the borders of foolistan may or may not include some or all of Texas? we can work the details out later after you recognise my right to exist on land that may or may not include some or all of Texas? Come on america don't be a trouble maker....chances are you will get your fair share of texas....


Hamas will always have a lame excuse as long as what they are being asked to recognise is a loose grouping of hazy thoughts and ideas.....some etherial concept called "israel" that nobody is able or willing to define. Hamas needs to accept reality....lets tell them what the reality is...why is that such a problem?

My own opinion is that Hamas does not want to recognise Israel because they think it is a defacto acceptance of Israeli occupation and I think that the inability of Israel to define itself is that there is still a chance of getting more territory and more importantly...more fresh water... These underlying issues can be addressed if "reality" is finally defined. Exactly what borders will Israel finally settle for...then you can start demanding people accept this reality.

 

[Gurdur]

once again, if you think they should recognize Israels right to exist as a state then what state are we talking about? Would you demand they recognise the right to exist of an "israel" that occupies all the original mandate?

Please re-read my posts. I said very clearly that recognition of the state of Israel does not mean recognising the borders as fixed. Now will you answer my question?

My own opinion is that Hamas does not want to recognise Israel because they think it is a defacto acceptance of Israeli occupation

So they're playing stupid macho games and getting stuffed as a result. Poor them. If they refuse to grow up and keep on calling for the total destruction of Israel, they have no-one to blame but themselves.

Just what is supposed to be stopping Hamas from following Fatah's lead in recognizing Israel?

 

[RandFan]

once again, if you think they should recognize Israels right to exist as a state then what state are we talking about?

A willingness on the part of Hamas to negotiate. Is that so hard to understand? The final agreement does NOT need to be decided ahead of time.

Hamas only need say one thing, we will recognize Israel if we can come to an agreement on the terms.

Can you see that? Hey, if they can't come to agreement then they can't come to agreement but as it stands right now where Hamas declares that Israel must be destroyed nothing good can happen. Nothing.

Why you are so stubborn on this is beyond me.

 

[The Fool]

Please re-read my posts. I said very clearly that recognition of the state of Israel does not mean recognising the borders as fixed. Now will you answer my question?

well, that may be your opinion....but there is also opinion that recognising a nation does imply acceptance of that nations borders. Which in the case of Israel you cannot determine therefor it could be suggested that recognition of Israel implies acceptance of Israeli control of all lands it occupies for as long as it wishes to stay. I believe this is one of the main things tha gives Hamas an out...lets define what they are being unreasonable in not accepting.

So they're playing stupid macho games and getting stuffed as a result. Poor them. If they refuse to grow up and keep on calling for the total destruction of Israel, they have no-one to blame but themselves.

I agree, it is stupid macho chest thumping...and it should be treated as such. A lot of people want to tell me its a real risk...that this rag tag of busted arse bigmouth bullies with a handfull of clapped out weapons could seriously threaten Israel. whatever....

Just what is supposed to be stopping Hamas from following Fatah's lead in recognizing Israel?

nothing....Fatah recognised the meaninglessness of the statement and don't have fundamentalist religion to help drive them to pigheaded refusal.

 

[The Fool]

Hamas only need say one thing, we will recognize Israel if we can come to an agreement on the terms.

I believe what you have described would not be acceptable to Israel. This is not a recognition of Israel...the demand is Hamas recognize something called "Israel" (which is apparently too damn hard for anyone to define).....before.......before...anything about coming to an agreement on the terms.