Atheism is a faith.

[The Atheist]

Actually, no, I'm one of those smelly, evil, lazy tax-burdening liberal elitest engineering professors.

AAAARGHHH! Even worse.

 

[The Atheist]

We know you're jealous.

Jealous? Please.

Jealous? Of a bloke whose time's his own; his money's provided by sweat-soaked Kiwis, toiling away under the merciless, ozone-free atmosphere; no need of sleep; can get drunk any time of day; surrounded by young women of loose morals?

What on Earth has a bloke with 4 kids, 3 companies, 3 websites and a house to organise (all the while, slaving away under the merciless.. etc., to pay enough tax to support idle students) supposed to be jealous about?

Answer me that!

 

[thaiboxerken]

But, there IS a point of creation. But, besides that, I have met very educated and knowledgeable physicists and cosmologists who when I ask them if they think there is a god they say, "yes, but you won't find it here". According to Plait, they are wrong. I do not see he has any particular knowledge that they do not have.

Obviously, he knows there isn't evidence of any gods, ANYWHERE.

Imagine some kid goes to his popular website to learn about astronomy and ends up getting preached to. This is bad astronomy.

I don't agree. If anything, it's just a bit more truth about the universe the kid is learning. However, if you have a problem with Phil's site, why not e-mail him?

 

[CapelDodger]

I stick to a combination of ridicule, denigration and blarney ...

It's an option. Lots of opportunity for entertainment.

My intention is generally to shift the subject in an ordinary social situation, because it isn't likely to make for an entertaining evening. (It's different on the Forum, people come here deliberately for a fight, that is the entertainment.) I try to stun them with the "subjective/objective" thing, then steer the conversation away, not usually difficult, while they're struck dumb. You stun them by other means.

The Forum situation is more challenging, it's not real-time. The opposition can recover and come back in four pages down the line, and why not? It's what the interaction's supposed to be about.

Huntster appears to be satisified with a canvas shield :

Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely)

because there's that "falsely" problem. When one ridicules the ridiculous, one is not being false. When persecution means stopping people from burning others alive, it's a good thing. And as to evil - who's to say what that is? Making jokes about priests and altar-boys?

I myself stand guilty of leading others astray, I had the "Faith, Hope and Charity" thing wrong . That's what you get for checking facts with a theology graduate - there happened to be one in the house at the time. Mea culpa, I will check my own facts in future, using proper authorities such as Wiki.

 

[CapelDodger]

But, there IS a point of creation.

Quite possibly. There's no point to creation though.

 

[CapelDodger]

Obviously, he knows there isn't evidence of any gods, ANYWHERE.

Nor does he feel the need to think there is one. Or even the need to think that their might sort-of be a sort-of goddish kind of, you know, whatsit or whatever that, you know, might not have been thought of yet, sort of thing, in principle.

Can't say I'm surprised. He'd dead smart and articulate. Atheism more or less precipitates from that mix.

 

[Huntster]

Huntster appears to be satisified with a canvas shield :

Quote:
Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely)

because there's that "falsely" problem. When one ridicules the ridiculous, one is not being false.

When you do not know, and even cannot know, and profess to, it is false.

When persecution means stopping people from burning others alive, it's a good thing.

It would seem to me that it would be the "burning others alive" that would be the persecution.

So who's doing that?

And as to evil - who's to say what that is? Making jokes about priests and altar-boys?

Nope, although it's no laughing matter.

I myself stand guilty of leading others astray, I had the "Faith, Hope and Charity" thing wrong . That's what you get for checking facts with a theology graduate - there happened to be one in the house at the time. Mea culpa, I will check my own facts in future, using proper authorities such as Wiki.

No major sin "leading others astray" there. Just a minor arrangement mistake.

 

[donq]

Would you provide the evidence for this, at least with Xtianity, as that is something I know a little about. And what do you mean exactly by doubt?

Sure thing:

There is, of course, debate on this subject, as the holy scriptures can be vague, or mistranslated, which opens people up to contradicting interpretations. Try a Google search and you won’t often see it honed down to one simple statement - you’ll find pages and pages of interpretation. Fun stuff to wade through.

Matthew 12:31-32
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Luke 12:10
But unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.​

It could be argued that my use of doubt is too soft, and you have to actually deny the Holy Spirit before you fall into trouble. However, there are some who feel to doubt is to deny.

I first became aware of this through the documentary “The God Who Wasn't There: A Film Beyond Belief” by Brian Flemming (a former fundamentalist). He attended Village Christian School, in California. In the film he shares his terror as a youngster of committing the unforgivable sin.

Muslim belief: “First, there is the sin that God will not forgive. That is the sin called shirk, the sin of associating another object of worship along with God. Second, there is the sin that God may forgive. That is everything else but shirk, the one unforgivable sin.”

Shirk is the worship of idols, but idols is widely defined. I'm not allowed to post URLs but this came from: masjidtucson.org/submission/monotheism/idolworship.html

The critical quote at the above link would be: “{Ego} is a common form of idolatry. Most humans, because of their ego cannot bring themselves to worship God, nor can they make their opinion subordinate to God's opinion spelled out in the Quran because of their ego. If we disobey God and His messenger, we are committing idol worship even though there is no image in front of us. This is because we would be giving our opinion more importance than God's words.”

Perhaps I am stretching the meaning of doubt, but the last sentence in the above quote tells me I shouldn’t have opinions of my own. To doubt god is the road to damnation.

 

[donq]

As for any god of any religion, show me any evidence!

Amen!

 

[Mr Clingford]

Yet for all your personal experience, there is not anything here that could be called solid evidence. In the end, it is still just faith. Faith in the idea of redemption. Faith that the meaning you have found has anything to do with the existence of God.

That's why I posted this before that post you quoted:
"As God doesn't exist in the universe he is not a hypothesis that can be tested but I do think that people can feel his presence and love and that I have done so. I do know that this does not prove the existence of God, to myself, let alone others, but it is significant evidence for me (if not for anybody else and I wouldn't expect it to as I wouldn't buy it, but hopefully I would immediately dismiss it either) as to the best of my knowledge and abilities I have not deluded myself or been so by others. In addition I have been able at times to see beyond all the crap in the Xtian religion, all the hurt and idiocy (thank you creationists, Jack Chick et al), to a message that I think is worthwhile, that a human can find great meaning and satisfaction in life through selflessness and love (whether one is an atheist, theist or agnostic)."

I'm glad for you that Xtianity has brought you happiness. For some others here (talk to Slingblade) it has brought only misery. As for myself, a former Christian, I merely found it unsatisfying. Yet my life has plenty of meaning, plenty of love, plenty of giving, and is not, I like to think, self-destructive. So if two people achieve similar levels of, for lack of a better word, enlightenment, one with belief in God and one without belief in God, that says to me that God is not really a part of the equation. All of those things are coming from you, even if you choose to give the credit to a being for which there is no evidence.

But what do I do with my experiences which suggest that there is a loving God because they have been as real as anything else in my life. I don't think comebacks concerning optical illusions or the such cut it because I am a skeptical, intelligent, educated, thinking individual. At its best the Xtian church can save the lost and positively enrich those who are not in or teetering near a gutter.

 

[Mr Clingford]

Sure thing:

There is, of course, debate on this subject, as the holy scriptures can be vague, or mistranslated, which opens people up to contradicting interpretations. Try a Google search and you won’t often see it honed down to one simple statement - you’ll find pages and pages of interpretation. Fun stuff to wade through.

Matthew 12:31-32
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Luke 12:10
But unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.​

It could be argued that my use of doubt is too soft, and you have to actually deny the Holy Spirit before you fall into trouble. However, there are some who feel to doubt is to deny.

I first became aware of this through the documentary “The God Who Wasn't There: A Film Beyond Belief” by Brian Flemming (a former fundamentalist). He attended Village Christian School, in California. In the film he shares his terror as a youngster of committing the unforgivable sin.

Thank you. I will restrict myself to the Xtian bit. Would you expand on the experience at Village Christian School; was this fear used to control people (a terrible thing to do) or was it one that Brian Flemming developed himself?

The Bible sure can be vague, mysterious, downright odd and difficult, if not impossible to understand. The two quotations on that blaspheming the Holy Spirit are not clear at all what they are referring to but I have commonly come across the idea that it means ultimately turning your back on God and rejecting love (which I as I am a near universalist I think most people ultimately do not).

 

[skeptic griggsy]

If one experiences love in religious experience, it is just a feeling from ones own mental states, no evidence for her of a god!

 

[CapelDodger]

For the record, I don't agree with TA on this point. I do not agree that atheism is a faith.

I think it's a calling.

M.

And have you heard that call, my friend? Have you? You should, because that call is strong in the world, Oh Yes!, and it's coming from The Official Atheist Movement. Be one of the sisters and brothers in doubt! It's a low-maintenance movement, with a catchy slogan - To the Credible and Beyond! - a charismatic leader and just one policy. A simple "OK" gains you membership, or even a shrug and "Why not?".

 

[CapelDodger]

AAAARGHHH! Even worse.

I must admit, I didn't see that coming. Life, you just have to live it and love it, there's no end of surprises.

 

[CapelDodger]

But what do I do with my experiences which suggest that there is a loving God because they have been as real as anything else in my life. I don't think comebacks concerning optical illusions or the such cut it because I am a skeptical, intelligent, educated, thinking individual. At its best the Xtian church can save the lost and positively enrich those who are not in or teetering near a gutter.

Your experiences are entirely subjective. Your belief in a god doesn't derive from any observation of the objective world - which displays no such evidence - but are your own emotional responses to certain concepts. Put another way, it's all in your head.

 

[Tricky]

Your experiences are entirely subjective. Your belief in a god doesn't derive from any observation of the objective world - which displays no such evidence - but are your own emotional responses to certain concepts. Put another way, it's all in your head.

Good post Capel. You pretty much said the same thing I was thinking.

My question would have been "real in what sense?". That I exist and have thoughts and can imagine things is definitely real. But the things I imagine are not necessarily.

You can have a real physical reaction to something your brain has concocted, for example, an adreneline rush when you think you see a ghost. The fact that the ghost was just steam rising from a manhole doesn't make the experience any less real.

 

[donq]

Would you expand on the experience at Village Christian School; was this fear used to control people (a terrible thing to do) or was it one that Brian Flemming developed himself?

Flemming states in the film, “’When the school says each student will be encouraged to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ,’ this is what encouragement means: Be forgiven or be damned.”

In part of the film Flemming focuses on his own experience wrestling with his fear of doubting the easiest thing to doubt in Christian dogma: the Holy Ghost. As he searched for truth the answers he found drove him further away from religion in general and Christianity specifically. His fear was generated from his desire to search for answers and finding those answers brought him doubt. I would guess (purely conjecture, so take it for what it’s worth - not much) that many of the students didn’t feel the same as Flemming because they accepted what they were being taught. They didn’t question.

The threat of hell fire is often use by fundamentalists to persuade people. So in this sense there is a control through fear aspect to Christianity. Many Modern churches tend to emphasize the love part of Christianity. After all, as long as you believe you can be forgiven for anything except for denying the Holy Spirit.

 

[joobz]

I must admit, I didn't see that coming. Life, you just have to live it and love it, there's no end of surprises.

It's not really that strange. Everyone is stunted in some way. I've just always focused on science and design and never gave thought to anything else. I just happen to be philosophically and emotionally equivalent to a 12 year old.

 

[Mr Clingford]

Your experiences are entirely subjective. Your belief in a god doesn't derive from any observation of the objective world - which displays no such evidence -

This I think I agree with.

but are your own emotional responses to certain concepts.

What is your evidence for this? Evidence, not the philosophy that if it can't be measured then it doesn't exist.

Put another way, it's all in your head.

I think I agree too that it is in my head, or consciousness, anyway.

 

[Mr Clingford]

My question would have been "real in what sense?". That I exist and have thoughts and can imagine things is definitely real. But the things I imagine are not necessarily.

You can have a real physical reaction to something your brain has concocted, for example, an adreneline rush when you think you see a ghost. The fact that the ghost was just steam rising from a manhole doesn't make the experience any less real.

True, I should have been more clear. Being as honest as I can with myself the explanation that there was someone that I responded to is the best one, not that I was 'tricked' in some way into believing that.

Now I think it is a fair point to say where is the hard evidence because I feel that way if someone claims that ghosts exist, they talk to the dead, someone was healed at a service. If hard evidence were found for telepathy and it could be modelled and repeatable tests conducted that found it occured you would go, 'that surprised me', but now it is part of the observable, testable world so has ceased to be woo, but I don't think it would be necessarily life-changing (unless you could do it yourself perhaps!).

But I am saying that encountering God could be life-changing, and so much for the better. If you can, put aside all thoughts of the church, established and not established, and crap, boring or frightening and irrational services, and think instead of being quiet, stilling the emotions and the mind, controlling the breathing and waiting. Such an activity might be the start of something, and if not, it is good for the body to relax for a few minutes regularly! I am trying to contrast ghosts, for instance, which might be of interest to the mind only, with God, who could transform the whole of one's life (for the better).

To try and experience God you don't have to pay anything or give control of your life to anyone but just be open to the possibility.