I have applied for the challenge

I undertood that was entirely your position. My comment beginning with "Despite what you say..." was not directed at you and was far too ambiguous in this context. Indeed, it could be interpreted as being unambiguous and could be unstrstood to refer to you - as it was, indeed, you to who I was replying. I didn't intend that.

I apologise for the sloppiness of my language in that instance.
 
Samnite said:
Check h t t p://cavesurvey.com/long_underwater_caves.htm for some underground stream lengths.
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Interesting that Mexico has much longer underground creeks than Florida. It gives me an idea for a testing protocol for Peter:

Through dowsing, locate a dry spot in either the Quintana Roo area in Mexico or the Leon Sinks Cave System in Florida.
 
Has the application been received yet?

It seems rather a long time since he claims to have posted it.
 
NiallM said:
Has the application been received yet?

It seems rather a long time since he claims to have posted it.
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From his website the application is dated 11 September 2006. No follow up correspondence is noted.

Now how long is it reasonable for Peter Morris to wait? And what should a man like Peter do if no reply is received? Peter has not claimed to have done any follow up work.
 
Samnite said:
Sure, but I could similarly say that most water in any given terrestrial environment does not flow through rivers, but is transported through tiny pores in the rocks, soil, etc. It's a true statement, but does not change the fact that there are rivers in the terrestrial environment. There are underground rivers in karst regions. Cave divers swim through them all the time, for miles at a time. No amount of linguistic gymnastics is going to change that. I'm conducting a water quality study right now in north Alabama in a watershed which is entirely drained by an underground stream network. I've walked/swam the entire main trunk. It's there. There's simply no way around it.

Check h t t p://cavesurvey.com/long_underwater_caves.htm for some underground stream lengths. Keep in mind, also, that underground streams are very poorly known, and some of these could run for many more miles.

Now, we can quibble about the volume, flow rate, length, width, or depth of what constitutes a "river," but frankly that's really a tomayto/tomahto argument, and pretty nonproductive.
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Samnite (and robinson), I attempted to illuminate exactly what dowser's believe these underground rivers are.

They are not talking about Karst systems - they seem to think paleochannels are actual rivers. ie rivers of water running as cavities in the rock. They just don't understand that they are ancient river *beds*, ie sandstone with water filtering through them.

My attempt to Peter Morris when he last went off with this idea in 2004:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=789153&postcount=84
 
Hyparxis said:
Ah but then my grandmother also told us of "sinkholes" that swallowed houses and alligators caught up in hurricanes to be dropped from the sky.
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Umm there are some big sinkholes in Florida; I can't remember one swallowing a house off hand but I do remember one that swallowed a big piece of an Altamont Springs car dealership many years ago.

The alligator story sounds at least possible. Hurricanes blow stuff all over the place I guess an alligator could 'drop out of the sky' like anything else.
 
I see, Mr. Randi is presumed to be continuing to consider his response that so far has been "No!" We'll wait and see if Mr. Morris can eventually badger him into a duel. I should hope not. I don't want to see the MDC so abused.
 
Update on my claim

I have revised and updated my website, with some correspondence between me and Randi included in the latest news section. Sorry it took so long. Been busy.


It amazes me how many people don't understand the rules of the challenge. I've discussed the point with James Randi, and he has confirmed that non-paranormal claims CAN win the prize. It's amazing the amount of s+++ I've received from people who don't understand that point.

For example, the wine magnets recently attacked by Randi - anyone can claim a million simply by proving that they work. If it works in any way at all, you can win, even if the mechanism isn't paranormal. Randi himself agrees.

I have presented arguments that my claim qualifies on those same grounds.

I am awaiting Randi's response.

www.proverandiwrong.net
 
Yes, supernatural claims, paranormal claims, psudoscientific claims, unscientific claims, and, case by case, fringe scientific claims are MDC fodder.

Yours falls under the unscientific claim, doesn't it?
 
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I've read your Correspondence with Mr. Randi as quoted on your website. Of course he clarifies what has been said in the past about acceptab le claims for the MDC, but it doesn't look like he's picking up your gauntlet.

Even if Mr. Randi is still saying that water doesn't flow underground except in caves, it's the Foundation that decides who is making an unscientific claim. If James Randi still says as much and the Foundation sides with him on that, then your case could be under consideration as "unscientific" and therefore fodder for the MDC. You can be sure that the Foundation isn't going to bet a Million on James Randi or it's own mistake in something that can be corrected with geology textbooks.

Suppose Mr. Randi says he was mistaken or that you misunderstood him on the matter, then any chance at the MDC evaporates.

You quote him as replying to you, "Proving me wrong is not proving a paranormal claim; I am often wrong." That's a hot sun burning down on your puddle.

Now if you tweak your claim, so that it's more like the exaggerated claims that dowsers make about underground water, then it could fall under the unscientific category. But that would defeat your purpose.

I suppose you could continue to badger Mr' Randi with E-mails till he gave you some press in his Commentary. But I doubt it would be satisfactory to you.
They aren't going to play the Million on what can be written off as a misunderstanding.

Understand that Mr. Randi has sometimes spoken as if the MDC were his own, or in words that make it sound as if it were his private dueling pistol (As in the case of the wine magnets). But it's not. It's not his money. It's not his place. Yes, he can turn your claim down and the JREF will agree, but the JREF can veto him if he wanted to go after someone and the board didn't agree that it was appropriate.
 
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Call me ignorant, but being new here and unfamiliar with the challenge, (and please don't make me read 90 pages of stuff,) why is it hard to believe water flows underground?

Aquafers are simply subterainian rivers with in inlet and outlet. We've followed some already. There are pools of water that do not flow, and are simply pockets. Many caves are often simply voids where water once flowed and tunnels are left... to my understanding.

Is there something I'm missing? Why is it unreasonable to fathom flowing water underground while Hawaii is full of flowing lava tubes? A Discovery channel program demonstrated an opening and exit some distance apart of a river. I can't recall the specifics. They used a dye I believe. Would be interested to learn more.

Thanks,
Brian
 
Peter Morris said:
I have revised and updated my website, with some correspondence between me and Randi included in the latest news section. Sorry it took so long. Been busy.

<snip>
I am awaiting Randi's response.

www.proverandiwrong.net
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I cannot find anything on your website more recent than 6 September 2006. Have you received anything from JREF (ie Jeff Wagg) since then? Have they even acknowledged your application? Any follow up by you?

When did you apply? The application letter appears to be undated.

James Randi does not handle the applications. The last statement I have quoted you as saying does raise red flags for me.
 
rjh01 said:
I cannot find anything on your website more recent than 6 September 2006. Have you received anything from JREF (ie Jeff Wagg) since then? Have they even acknowledged your application? Any follow up by you?

When did you apply? The application letter appears to be undated.

James Randi does not handle the applications. The last statement I have quoted you as saying does raise red flags for me.
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http://www.proverandiwrong.net/Updates.aspx
 
I encourage everyone interested in this to carefully read the proverandiwrong website.

This is clearly not a challenge application. It fails on many levels, but the one that kills it completely is the basic claim that his only ability is to prove Randi wrong.

As Randi freely admits that he's often wrong, what's the point of this?

And when Randi says "Prove me wrong and win" he is clearly referring to the challenge. An expanded and pedantic way of saying this is "If you wish to prove me wrong, win the challenge, and I'll give you $1,000,000." I think that's fairly obvious.

I will not be entering a debate on this here, but I wanted to let everyone know that his claim has been rejected as it doesn't conform to the challenge rules.
 
Hyparxis said:
I've read your Correspondence with Mr. Randi as quoted on your website. Of course he clarifies what has been said in the past about acceptab le claims for the MDC, but it doesn't look like he's picking up your gauntlet.
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Actually, it's Randi that threw down the gauntlet, and me that picked it up. Under the terms of his own challenge, he is committed.



Suppose Mr. Randi says he was mistaken or that you misunderstood him on the matter, then any chance at the MDC evaporates.

You quote him as replying to you, "Proving me wrong is not proving a paranormal claim; I am often wrong." That's a hot sun burning down on your puddle.
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What if he did do so, and was seen to do so. What effect would that have on his credibility? How would that affect his challenge to eg Penta Water or the wine magnets?

First of all, he would have admitted being wrong about something fundamental. People then would be less inlined to trust his opinion. He was wrong about underground water, perhaps he's wrong about this too.

And then, he would remove any reason for applying. It would be known that he is in the habit of issuing challenges, then backing out when people accept them.

If he backs out, then ever after whenever he issues a challenge to Penta water or the wine magnet, they simply will have to respond "There's no point taking his challenge, he'll only say it's not paranormal and refuse to pay us"

Now, if he actually honours his challenge, he may be able to persuade Penn Jillette to give him another million. He'll then be able to say "If I'm wrong I WILL pay up, and I've done it before"
 
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