Thanks Facist Pigs!

[pipelineaudio]

Does this hypothetical bar use any city services? Public works? If there was a bar fight, could they call the police?

Actually the bar is required itself to act as law enforcement. In our bars here the bartenders are held accountable to be psychic and know for sure when someone has had too much to drink.

They can actually be found liable if the drunk wrecks his car into someone

Yet if they refuse to serve they will be individually liable for discrimination.

Besides the bar pays taxes so deserves city services.

 

[Tricky]

Actually the bar is required itself to act as law enforcement. In our bars here the bartenders are held accountable to be psychic and know for sure when someone has had too much to drink.

They can actually be found liable if the drunk wrecks his car into someone.

I know this has happened, but I honestly can't see where lawsuits for "overserving" are common. It would have to be pretty damn egregious. But that isn't really "law enforcement" anyway, it is law observation. However, I don't doubt that a drunk might become quite belligerant when refused another drink. Bartending (or waiting tables at a bar) is not a profession without risk.

Yet if they refuse to serve they will be individually liable for discrimination.

I have never heard of this happening, but I suppose it is possible that a bartender could be discriminitory in applying the overserving law. Do you know if there has ever been a test case?

Besides the bar pays taxes so deserves city services.

Paying taxes is one part of your contract with the city/community. Obeying the law is another.

 

[brodski]

Ahhh its so confusing, this issue! ABout the bar staff however, Id like to see that even a significant minority are opposed to smoking in bars, I wouldnt believe it

I find the question of whether the bar staff want a smoking ban a bit of a moot point, especially when you are looking at working within existing frameworks of employment legislation. No other industry would be allowed to expose workers to an atmosphere as hazardous as that of a Smokey bar without requiring some level of protection. It is a general principle of current employment legislation that workers cannot consent to be exposed to uncontrolled risks, the principle behind this is that there is usually more incentive for a business to work to lower safety standards to reduce costs and find new staff if necessary, than there is for the business to make themselves uncompetitive but safe- this usually means that, where practise have been engrained in an industry, a workers choice is either to put up with the dangerous practise, or find a new industry in which to work. Government regulation prevents a "market" in workers safety, whilst still allowing business to compete with each other in other ways. There could be other ways to control for the dangers of ETS without an outright ban, but bar owners have usually been resistant to those, usually because they feel that the alternatives would damage their business as much as an outright ban would.

 

[Beerina]

since when does a bar have to lose all of its business to go under?

And since when is it up to the government to decide a legal activity, smoking, should not go on in an entertainment place that it has historically since long before intrusive officials decided to stick their nose in it to gain the votes of people who hate smoking (and, let's face it, not to actually protect workers.)

 

[brodski]

And since when is it up to the government to decide a legal activity, smoking, should not go on in an entertainment place that it has historically since long before intrusive officials decided to stick their nose in it to gain the votes of people who hate smoking

Ever since they banned nudity in public places a precedent was set.

(and, let's face it, not to actually protect workers.)

Evidence?

 

[Darat]

And since when is it up to the government to decide a legal activity, smoking, should not go on in an entertainment place that it has historically since long before intrusive officials decided to stick their nose in it to gain the votes of people who hate smoking (and, let's face it, not to actually protect workers.)

Since we became organized governments of course.

 

[pipelineaudio]

I have never heard of this happening, but I suppose it is possible that a bartender could be discriminitory in applying the overserving law. Do you know if there has ever been a test case?

Im not sure...Im going to look my hardest. These were the conflicting warnings we were given by the liquor board when a business comittee had a meeting for the interpretation of the new laws.

there is a threshold with both and upper and lower limit which needs to be followed or legal and civil action can be taken at both ends. Allegedly the bar is mostly insulated from this as well! It is the bartender in danger.

We have got to start holding people responsible for their own actions. If we ever could, theres no reason not to legalize drugs and so much else

But as a society in libbermerica we are all charged with making sure others dont hurt themselves, and absolving them of guilt when they make poor choices (he raped his grandma becasue he had low self esteem etc...)

 

[luchog]

No, they weren’t discredited in any meaningful way. I am told that Penn and Teller have publicly apologised for misrepresenting the facts in their episode of "Bulls-Hit". There is almost as much evidence that prolonged exposure to environmental tobacco smoke (ETS) can cause cancer as there is that smoking causes cancer. Of course there are those that have historically disputed that smoking causes cancer, usually for financial or ideological reasons.

The study that supposedly refuted the ETS/cancer link was funded by... yup, you guessed it, the tobacco industry. Much like a similar study decades earlier that "refuted" the smoking/cancer link.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Well well well, its a hollow victory but:

I TOLD YOU SO

DIdnt even take long

Because pigs are too stupid to NOT enter a club that allows smoking if the pigs dont like smoke, the pigs have ruined it for everyone

We now have three clubs left to play:

The big Fish pub, (ooops wait, http://www.myspace.com/bigfishpub

Theyre shutting down, or kicking the bands out so thats two)

Hollywood Alley,

And Joes Grotto, who is in grave danger of the next group of nazis I predicted, the noise nazis

Yes these pigs moved into an industrial neighborhood where there had been a rock club for decades, knew about the noise, but are now trying to pass db laws

Thanks pigs!

 

[Cleon]

Those facists really have a nose for trouble, don't they?

 

[FarmallMTA]

Not only do I have to deal with the financial situation of most of my customers having lost their jobs to illegal mexican invaders, now we got a statewide no smoking policy in bars

No more bands

When tempe and mesa passed these laws, their clubs dried up and their music scenes died

Now its statewide, I may as well just go on welfare. SInce you facist nazis love to tell me how to live my life, you may as well pay for my food

I'd think if your music didn't totally suck people would show up to hear it, yes?

I'm looking through my "International Brotherhood of Music Listeners" union shop rules manual and I'm finding nothing that says I must smoke while listening to angst ridden, semi-faggoty, metrosexual posers play dull music badly. So if the clubs died, I'm guessing it's because the crappy music played there killed 'em.

Sic Semper Mortis, dude. Go blow clove cigarette smoke rings and figure out another way to bore people.

 

[pipelineaudio]

I'd think if your music didn't totally suck people would show up to hear it, yes?

Wow you read well dont you?

While you were so busy being smug, you might have skipped the part where I am a recording engineer..It is not MY business to create music that doesnt suck as you so eloquently point out...its my business to record them

They no longer have money

 

[FarmallMTA]

Wow you read well dont you?

While you were so busy being smug, you might have skipped the part where I am a recording engineer..It is not MY business to create music that doesnt suck as you so eloquently point out...its my business to record them

They no longer have money

Okay, now that you're engaged... I'm not smug so much as bitingly sarcastic. How is smoking really related to music? What IS related to music is the notes, the words, the instrumentation, the presentation, the atmosphere, the anticipation of a fond remembrance of a good time, etc.

Musical performers for years have spent way to much time honing their perhaps passable talents into the type of "groove" lauded by Spin, Groove, Vibe, Rolling Stone, Country Music, and other trade mags and rags. The resulting dreck passed off as "music"... almost regardless of type... is dull, derivative, sterile, predictable, and really just boring, and the performers are dreadfully stuck in a stylistic/cultural/musical rut. Exceptions exist yes, but the industry is in BIG trouble as a result of the monotony and homogenization that's occurred. Your task as an engineer it to overcome it. And angst-ridden, semi-faggoty, metrosexual dullards ain't gonna do it. What will do it is creative engineering such as behind a highly creative group such as Us3 which has successfully fused funk, rap, jazz, and dance into a new exciting musical conversation. Blue Note, the jazz label, got their first platinum record... after many years of jazz brilliance... with this approach. You can too, if you'll turn loose of the musical preconceptions, blinders and shackles binding the whole music crowd.

I'd suggest the music industry is currently similar to the state of music in '53-'54, when pop was stuck in Perry Como/Eddie Fisher/Rosemary Clooney lushland and Country was firmly locked into it's mourning of Hank Williams. It took Sun Records with Elvis, Chess Records with Chuck Berry, and Mercury Records with George Jones to chart authentic and freshly connected music that blazed new exciting trails.

Proof? Today, Classic Rock stations are booming while almost every other format is flat or declining. As a result, if I hear "Stairway to Heaven" one more time, I'm going to go Cho on the radio in my car.

You are an engineer. Help develop music that needs to come rather than lash out bitterly because the old crap and styles of performing aren't fit to listen to. Otherwise, your livelihood is dead as disco, man.