Atheism is a faith.

Kay, so using the definition of atheism given by the dictionary and others here, I would conclude that faith is incorporated into atheism. However, the definition given by others leads to the opposite conclusion.

But my dictionary does not contain non-theism, so :p !
 
I'm glad you said that and not me!
None of us is perfect. With so much typing in the past few days, call it a slip of the fingers.
More beer, bacon & eggs will fix that.
I'm hoping that your excellent, to-the-point approach works. You're 100% correct. I couldn't have said it better, and obviously I didn't, because the message didn't seem to get through.
I hold no hopes for it, but it is a pet peeve of mine that people try to claim the "atheist" tag without understanding what one actually is.

Cheers
 
Well, if anyone wants to know the sort of extreme atheist position I've been arguing about when saying that the position of atheism is a placeholder for faith, here is one who is not only aware of that fact, but proud of it!

Agnostics... lack belief in god, but they aren't necessarily atheists. Atheists don't lack belief, we hold the belief - the faith - that our opinion of there being NO GOD, is correct.

Yes, although some here may want to have some sort of softer, all-inclusive definition of atheist, I suspect that this is the one that religious people equate with faith.

That faith is based upon science having given the answers to the questions we ask. It isn't proof - we leave that to "sceptics", who must worry everything to a slow death without 100% "evidence".

Science is a tool for gathering knowledge. Atheism is not. MdC, this is a prime example of someone conflating the position of Atheism with knowledge. TA, you do science a disservice by saying it has "given the answers to the questions we ask." It has not.

Science is one of the best (if not the best) tools we have for obtaining knowledge. It gives us practical, physical knowledge. Science has pushed God out of certaing gaps, but has in no way eliminated God. Religion (and atheism, and dare I say philosophy) can be fun, but my feeling is that the utility is limited. On internet forums and over beers at 2 a.m. these great questions of existence can be fun... but are irrelevant. Don't co-opt science as anything akin to proof (I'm hoping that by, "It isn't proof," you meant scientific results :o ).

Common sense can't be bought.

You've got that right. ;)
 
Originally Posted by Huntster
Cowards.
I'm glad you said that and not me!

I just beat you to it. I've seen you here, confronted by a gang of them.

Originally Posted by Huntster
I'm hoping that your excellent, to-the-point approach works. You're 100% correct. I couldn't have said it better, and obviously I didn't, because the message didn't seem to get through.

I hold no hopes for it.....

Me, neither.

Oh, well. It's a good fight, nonetheless.
 
I've been seriously trying to work out Hunster's nonsense for 3 pages now.

Apparently there is a third option between being 'X' or not being 'X' - can anyone tell me what it is?

Apparenty it's being something else entirely but that something is neither contained within the set of X or the set of Not X.

Personally I think Hunster is just waffling.
 
Well, if anyone wants to know the sort of extreme atheist position I've been arguing about when saying that the position of atheism is a placeholder for faith, here is one who is not only aware of that fact, but proud of it!

It appears to me that there is a resentment among many here of the mere concept of faith, and when it's pointed out that they, too, exercise faith to one extent or another, they become very hostile.

Not that their hostility is a problem. But it's interesting, nonetheless.
 
I've been seriously trying to work out Hunster's nonsense for 3 pages now.

Apparently there is a third option between being 'X' or not being 'X' - can anyone tell me what it is?

There are 25 other letters in the alphabet?

Apparenty it's being something else entirely but that something is neither contained within the set of X or the set of Not X.

Personally I think Hunster is just waffling.

I don't like waffles. I prefer beer, bacon, sausage, and eggs over medium.
 
Huntster said:
The Atheist said:
Atheism has some similarities to religion. It is NOT a religion! Methinks you just went one step too far with that one! I got my .45 ready, Pilgrim!

Well, maybe I did go too far with that one. Maybe..........

I agree with The Atheist. While atheism may make a claim about the supernatural, it is a negative claim and is confined to only one issue. Furthermore, atheism has no system of worship. One could use the weakest definition, "a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance." However, I would then know many football-ists and drama-ists :) .
 
There are 25 other letters in the alphabet?



I don't like waffles. I prefer beer, bacon, sausage, and eggs over medium.

Yes, and all other 25 are not X. In fact even letters in other languages are not X. Entire words containing X are not X. In fact, everything is not X except for X.

Its OK to admit you are wrong.
 
Not if I'm not wrong.

There would be a first time for anything. Care to show a post where you are not wrong?

Or answer the question I asked with an coherent relevant example?

Is it that you CAN'T admit you are wrong? Because to be honest you are coming across as a complete CAN'T.
 
:) As a strong atheist,I find that theists haven't and never will show a god and that here absence of evidence is indeed evidence of absence and not a n argument from ignorance. There is no god just as there is no phlogiston. The word is empty . Faith is just the I just say so of credulity. The real debate is not about a god but which theory of the multiverse is correct! Theists just put old garbage into new cans that we empty. How about that for positive atheism? And I never have have thought of a future state for myself!;) :o
 
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Well, if anyone wants to know the sort of extreme atheist position I've been arguing about when saying that the position of atheism is a placeholder for faith, here is one who is not only aware of that fact, but proud of it!
Damn right! That's precisely why I'm The Atheist and not The Very Nearly An Atheist.
Yes, although some here may want to have some sort of softer, all-inclusive definition of atheist, I suspect that this is the one that religious people equate with faith.
"Religious people" have nothing to do with it, the fact that Huntster and I agree is because he's clearly one of the few people in here who knows how to use a dictionary. What people want it to mean is irrelevant - it has a perfectly valid and recognised meaning.
Science is a tool for gathering knowledge. Atheism is not. MdC, this is a prime example of someone conflating the position of Atheism with knowledge. TA, you do science a disservice by saying it has "given the answers to the questions we ask." It has not.
Disagree entirely. I don't conflate anything. I may have been a bit skimpy on details, but I get sick of explaining minutiae which should be sefl-evident. I'll do it anyway, though. The "we" I'm referring to are atheists within its meaning. I'm not for a second suggesting that science has given all the answers to all questions, just sufficient to be "beyond reasonable doubt". Much akin to a court of law, I don't require absence of doubt; "beyond reasonable" will do me.
Science is one of the best (if not the best) tools we have for obtaining knowledge. It gives us practical, physical knowledge. Science has pushed God out of certaing gaps, but has in no way eliminated God. Religion (and atheism, and dare I say philosophy) can be fun, but my feeling is that the utility is limited. On internet forums and over beers at 2 a.m. these great questions of existence can be fun... but are irrelevant. Don't co-opt science as anything akin to proof (I'm hoping that by, "It isn't proof," you meant scientific results :o ).
As above.
 
It appears to me that there is a resentment among many here of the mere concept of faith, and when it's pointed out that they, too, exercise faith to one extent or another, they become very hostile.

Not that their hostility is a problem. But it's interesting, nonetheless.

This is part of why I have largely withdrawn from the forum: there is something wrong with some of the participants to the point where it's not quite like dealing with normal people. I know I'll be accused of analyzing from afar, but this is part of a trend I have observed over the last few decades, and I have met many people like this in person, too.

Essentially, I think there is a personality type that deals poorly with uncertainty. This may be an attribute of a disorder such as OCPD, or just an exaggerated individual personality axis. Regardless, this type of person seeks certainty and metaphilosophical closure, and is anxious without it. I think it's a toss-up as to whether this person becomes a religious, political, or naturalistic extremist, and each finds a unique path to one of these destinations.

Often: I am intrigued by observing examples of somebody who was a door-knocking, foot-washing, bible-thumping, exorcism-seeker - then suddenly reads a bit of Dawkins and is railing against all religions as the crime of the century. The magnitude of obsession is identical - just a change of obsession.

My dad is like this: devout Catholic, turned devout atheist, now he's forgotten that and is ready to chain himself naked to the Legislature over a neighbour's eyesore street signage.

At the end of the day, the worst accusation would be that of 'waffler' (remember that one?) or that their conclusions are based on assumptions. It undermines the confidence of their doctrine... sets them adrift, if you will.

In the case of atheism, I've long argued that a person can be a skeptic and religious, or a skeptic and atheistic, or a skeptic and agnostic *and* an atheist (I put myself in this category - aka: "I doubt the claims of all participants, feel there is no way to test the claims, but based in the evidence and my chosen worldview of philosophical naturalism, I really don't think God exists, and will act accordingly.")

Bunge's article in Skeptical Inquirer V.30 No.4 is germaine. I quote:
Most scientists are unaware that they uphold any philosophical views. Moreover, they dislike being told that they do.

To some extent, philosophical naturalism - the underlying philosophy of science - has become detached from the operational segment of the profession. Consequently, most people filling scientific or technological roles today are unaware that some of their 'facts' are actually metaphysical axioms or assumptions.

Most importantly, some of these axioms (unprovable by definition) contradict those accepted by people in other worldviews. This thread has assumed, for example, that it is important to be logically consistent. That is not a 'fact' and it is not reliably shared by all religious philosophers. It explains why we reject religious views, but it doesn't explain why they are 'wrong'. Just that they're wrong given our established ontology. But the ontology is not independently verifiable, and can arguably be considered a 'belief system,' 'worldview,' or perhaps even a 'faith.'

I often ask skeptics who are so certain about these things to rewind a bit and explain to me why, for example, it's important to be correct rather than wrong, or to be skeptical rather than unquestioning. Why is it important to be alive rather than dead. Why is it important, if we are correct about something, to bring this view to others instead of keeping it to ourselves.

I think for a lot of people in this personality type I'm monitoring, these questions are uncomfortable in their subtlety, complexity, and uncertainty. After however many years of studying philosophy (I do not have a philosophy degree) and interacting with philosophy professors as colleagues and friends, I have concluded that there is no worldview that is satisfactorily complete or accurate. This bothers me, but not so much that I will adopt one as complete and accurate, and ignore all the criticisms. I attribute this to an intrinsic property.
 
Yes, and all other 25 are not X. In fact even letters in other languages are not X. Entire words containing X are not X. In fact, everything is not X except for X.

Its OK to admit you are wrong.
You can use all 26 letters of the alphabet to work out a trillion equations - hell, borrow a few from Cyrillic alphabets if 26 isn't sufficient.

Your problem isn't equations, it's simply understanding what one word means. (I'm getting a strange sense of deja vu, I have this argument all the time!) Huntster will never admit he's wrong here, for the best reason available - he's right.

If you, jimbo and a couple of others want to change the meaning of atheist, I suggest approaching Oxford Dictionary, it is regularly updated to embrace changes in the language. So far, they haven't seen the need, but chip away, it may happen.
 
Quick aside to RandFan, I forgot to copy your post, but I see you obviously use the same [lack of] skills in every thread or disagreement you have.
I see your only skill is personal attack. You bring nothing to the discussion but your own ego and your only style is to engage in fallacy. {shrug}
 
It appears to me that there is a resentment among many here of the mere concept of faith, and when it's pointed out that they, too, exercise faith to one extent or another, they become very hostile.
Yet isn't that strange - they have faith in democracy, the Constitution, the Fire Department, the justice system, but aren't allowed to have faith in a concept they claim to adhere to?

I wonder how many of them get their wives and girlfriends to wear Forget-me-not-panties? They couldn't have faith in a woman if they can't have faith in their own beliefs, could they?
 
If you, jimbo and a couple of others want to change the meaning of atheist, I suggest approaching Oxford Dictionary, it is regularly updated to embrace changes in the language.
As James Randi regularly points out, a dictionary is to define usage. It's not some law that rules the universe. It's not absolute. It's not the reason to decide what atheism means.

More importantly I note that you are at odds with Dennett, Dawkins and Randi who argue that atheism is not a faith.

But hey, it's your ego and Ed knows that you will never let go since you know you are right. A semantical argument that appeals to your ego is paramount. BFD. A tempest in a teapot.
 
Yet isn't that strange - they have faith in democracy, the Constitution, the Fire Department, the justice system, but aren't allowed to have faith in a concept they claim to adhere to?
Not BLIND FAITH.

Faith based on logic, reason and experience. I hold my faith in these things provisionally. They are not absolute. This has nothing whatsoever to do with religious faith that is blind and based on emotion and nothing else.
 

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