Thanks Facist Pigs!

[CFLarsen]

We were talking about the 90's

luchog certainly weren't, which is what I responded to:

Just because you can't read, doesn't mean the response was incoherent. You're being disingenuously obtuse again. Anyone with any knowledge of popular music knows that Grunge was one of the most influential movements of the previous century, with far-reaching effects not only musically, but also in fashion and marketting. It's importance is rivaled only by Punk.

You can't focus on just one decade, if you want a historical outlook.

That "blip" as you referred to it changed EVERYTHING both in and related to, the music business in so many ways.
...
For better or for worse that little blip has had a huge effect on entertainment

You need to read up on the history of the music business industry. You suffer from severe tunnel vision: You think that the only thing that has happened is what you have personally experienced.

What you have described here has happened many times. E.g., the British Invasion was made possible by an undergrowth of bands in the UK: Everyone, it seemed, were in a band. Especially in Liverpool, first with the skiffle craze, and later with rock'n'roll. Then, the Beatles, which completely changed the face of music in a much more profound way than grunge can ever aspire to. The 70's saw the advent of a true mass-market for music. And so on and so forth. Music history seems to repeat itself.

Now:

Is this you?

Why are you so intent on bringing skin color into this?

If everything is up to the employer?

 

[Sally]

How about this:

Install some spittoons and offer up pouches of Redman to your customers. The customers that want the nicotine buzz to enhance their drinking can get it and everyone can enjoy a smoke free environment. Its win-win-win.

 

[Mashuna]

I thought that all Wetherspoons pubs where non smoking, not that I would recommend going to one of those…

I haven't been to a Wetherspoons in a while (and there isn't one near where I live now). Last time I went, there was a non-smoking section at the back, but smoking allowed in the other three quarters of the pub. Could all have changed now though.

 

[Mashuna]

It's interesting that you should ask that, Mashuna. I'm a Chicago native, and I can say that I don't remember there being any smoke-free bars. I always felt like, if there was so much public interest in banning smoking in bars, wouldn't someone open one up? Were bar owners just afraid to go against tradition? Or is there really as much demand for it as was assumed? Or are the people bitching the most about smoking in bars the ones least likely to frequent them?

I don't really know. I just always thought that, with the politicians patting themselves on the back about banning smoking and "listening to the people", it was odd that no one in the bar business had gone that route themselves. Now we have laws in some cities that forbid any business from making this decision on their own. That's what bothers me. It should be up to the business owner. The employers and customers can choose accordingly.

Just because there are no other options (i.e. non-smoking bars) doesn't make the government's intrusion justifiable.

Thanks for the answer - so not that much different from here then.

I must confess that I don't really have that much of an issue with government intrusion. It's kind of what they do. I mean that without commenting on the ethics or morality of the situation, I wonder if there's just less of a strong libertarian viewpoint over here?

 

[El Greco]

I just always thought that, with the politicians patting themselves on the back about banning smoking and "listening to the people", it was odd that no one in the bar business had gone that route themselves. Now we have laws in some cities that forbid any business from making this decision on their own. That's what bothers me. It should be up to the business owner. The employers and customers can choose accordingly.

The problem is that many people (like me) will never complain to the owners about the smoke. In many places it is impossible to find the owners anyway. Personally I just leave or never go again or go only when I don't want to spoil a good company. Other people will value the "coolness" of the place more than the atmosphere. And as I said, smoke is often "sneaky". What is a clear place at 23:00 is unbearable at 02:00.

So for people like me it's much more pleasurable to go to open bars/clubs/restaurants. Especially with restaurants, I actively avoid those with a lot of smoke (and noise). And AFAIK there are many people like me, it's just that we don't bother to express our complaints.

 

[Tricky]

Speaking of aspirators, I like to post this drawing I made every time this discussion comes up. I really ought to try and market this thing. At least patent it.

 

[Tricky]

How about this:

Install some spittoons and offer up pouches of Redman to your customers. The customers that want the nicotine buzz to enhance their drinking can get it and everyone can enjoy a smoke free environment. Its win-win-win.

I guess you haven't heard of the dangers of second-hand chaw.

(No, don't think about it. It's too gross.)

 

[Lurker]

Just as in Seattle noone was from there but many made their mark there.

The town has no music scene or any significant contribution bandwise since that smoking ban.

Somewhat off topic, but are you sure you can link the ban to the drop in the music scene? I mean, I lived in Mpls when the music scene there started taking off (Soul Asylum, Replacements, Husker Du etc...). But over time it ran dry. I think that is just part of hte music process. A city is hit with a wave of inspiration but a few years later it runs dry. What new badn has come out of Athens lately?

Lurker

 

[Francesca R]

If most people don't smoke I have no problem with their governments legislating against smoking. -Acuity

That's a fun sentence. Let's try some others.

If most people aren't gay, I have no problem with their governments legislating against homosexuality.

If most people aren't black, I have no problem with their governments legislating against african-americanism.

Man, that IS fun.

Glad you're having fun but you don't seem to have grasped the difference between inflicting damage on others via your choices, and inflicting no damage on anyone via your skin colour or sexual orientation. Hope you have fun looking that one up. It may illuminate for you why South Africa eventually got rid of Apartheid, why so many democracies enforce against antiracial or homophobic behaviour, and why governments are increasingly banning smoking in public buildings.

Then you might be more or less up to date.

 

[joobie]

Somewhat off topic, but are you sure you can link the ban to the drop in the music scene?

well, philadelphia's recent smoking ban is surely why people aren't buying up teddy prendergrass records like hotcakes anymore.

anecdotally i haven't noticed much of a difference, which sort of surprises me. i live on the edge of the city, and you can pretty much go down the street and smoke in a bar. the only difference is that instead of dealing with smoke i get to hear smokers whine about how they aren't going to come there anymore.

this has been going on for a couple months now. they still come. then again it's still relatively warm.

 

[Sally]

I guess you haven't heard of the dangers of second-hand chaw.

(No, don't think about it. It's too gross.)

What dangers?

I think the chewing tobacco people are missing a golden opportunity to gain more mainstream acceptance. All the benefits of smoking to the user none of the harmful side effects to bystanders. Smokeless tobacco bars should be popping up all over states and cities with smoking bans...

 

[shecky]

Joobie, you bastard! You stole what was gonna be my next avatar!

 

[shecky]

Somewhat off topic, but are you sure you can link the ban to the drop in the music scene?

Link? Who needs to establish a link! It's the fascists. FASCISTS I tell ya. Oh and the Messkins, too.

Pipeline's paranoia needs job protection, too.

 

[Francesca R]

I wonder if there's just less of a strong libertarian viewpoint over here?

It seems contrary to libertarian ideas to protest smoking bans.

With smoking bans:
Someone who would elect to do something—in an establishment open to the public—which harms her neighbour against his will—is forcibly prevented from so doing. She can carry on life freely as long as she does not harm her neighbours.

Without smoking bans:
Someone—who is not harming anybody—must either forego access to an establishment open to the public, or must suffer harm that she does not consent to from her neighbour.

Which policy curtails civil liberty more?

Do libertarians have a higher uptake of smoking or something?

 

[drkitten]

It seems contrary to libertarian ideas to protest smoking bans.

Do libertarians have a higher uptake of smoking or something?

No. Libertarians are simply anti-government in all forms.

I have had libertarians tell me that it would be a violation of their civil liberties for a policeman to prevent them from poisioning a village well; apparently their "right" to put poision in a community resource trumps my right not to die from poison.

 

[brodski]

It seems contrary to libertarian ideas to protest smoking bans.

With smoking bans:
Someone who would elect to do something—in an establishment open to the public—which harms her neighbour against his will—is forcibly prevented from so doing. She can carry on life freely as long as she does not harm her neighbours.

Without smoking bans:
Someone—who is not harming anybody—must either forego access to an establishment open to the public, or must suffer harm that she does not consent to from her neighbour.

Which policy curtails civil liberty more?

Do libertarians have a higher uptake of smoking or something?

Not if delivered by government regulation, because government regulation is inherently evil. Libertarians like to pretend that the market will always deliver, and then point to the fact that the market doesn't deliver something to show that people don't really want it, despite the fact that things which libertarians campaign against (smoking bans, zoning laws, medical regulation) prove extremely popular at the polls.
Which just goes to prove that everyone who votes is really a member of the SS (hell bent on genocide and mayhem) and are engaged in a complex and all powerful conspiracy against the only Truly Enlightened and Rational members of society, the libertarians.

 

[Esperdome]

What if a bar owner concerned with smoke in their bar installs a ventilation system that sucks smoke away from every table with a vacuum system combined with three or four times the air exchanges per hour more than required by code.

Combine this with a heat exchanger to extract heat from the incoming air by transferring it to exhaust air.

Bar air is virtually smoke free. It's like drinking in a spring breeze. This is an engineering solution to the problem that would make smoking bans unnecessary.

Industry often sees the writing on the wall and takes the bitter pill themselves to avoid government intervention. Why should clubs and bars be any different?

 

[pgwenthold]

No. Libertarians are simply anti-government in all forms.

I am the exception to that, apparently.

I am libertarian (voted for many in the last election) and am not anti-government in any way.

 

[brodski]

deleted

 

[brodski]

What if a bar owner concerned with smoke in their bar installs a ventilation system that sucks smoke away from every table with a vacuum system combined with three or four times the air exchanges per hour more than required by code.

Combine this with a heat exchanger to extract heat from the incoming air by transferring it to exhaust air.

Bar air is virtually smoke free. It's like drinking in a spring breeze. This is an engineering solution to the problem that would make smoking bans unnecessary.

Industry often sees the writing on the wall and takes the bitter pill themselves to avoid government intervention. Why should clubs and bars be any different?

Requiring that would almost certainly cost bars more than any loss of buisness from a smoking ban.