Another Steel-Framed Building Collapses Due to Fire

SPIN SPIN SPIN - you're making me dizzy.

You are blinded by Skeptianity and its preachers.

You are the one in the cult and you are the one where critical thinking is not required, just adherence to cult propaganda of 9/11 CT.

A politically blind guy; misleads to make political point.

critical thinking not required, just adherence to cult propaganda
You just posted the proof, and you web site is additional proof.

Not my fault, I am not smart enough to figure this out but in your case it is way too easy to figure out. You just posted it.

What did happen to the fuel in WTC7, there were 10,000 to 20,000 gallons of fuel, what did it do?

You can not answer about the fuel or tried to figure out what happen to the fuel because you are the kind of CT guy who reflects the fact critical thinking is not required, just adherence to cult propaganda.

The fuel is the question, your political bias is your failure to research or find the answers.
 
UPDATE:

No photos, video or official reports that document 47 stories of fire involvement.

UPDATE: No professional firefighter with any semblance of sanity would call for photos or video of any given fire event to be provided in order to prove that the fire actually occurred. And no sane professional firefighter would pretend that video or official reports of fire on every floor of the building is required to describe the building as "fully involved".

Russell, come on - you claim to have been a firefighter once upon a time. Are you seriously suggesting that a building would not be described as "fully involved" unless there are photos or video showing flames on every floor or
"official reports" of every floor being in flames? Really? Really? (Insert Kyle graphic here)

In the real world, the vast majority of fires are not captured on film or video. Even when a fire fortuitously gets captured on film, any fire professional will tell you that any given video is not dispositive of the origin or the development of the fire. While photos and video can be helpful in ascertaining specific aspects of the spread of fire at a particular piont in time, any professional firefighter, and any fire reconstruction professional, knows that random photos and video are limited to capturing a particular point in time and a particular angle of opportunity to observe. No professional firefighter worth his salt would purport to tell the whole story of a fire on the basis of some still photographs and a couple of videos from limited vantage points.

Yet, you seem to be suggesting that photos and videos from angles and perspectives that were obviously limited, are somehow dispositive to "prove" your point of view, while you ignore first hand evidence from people at the scene.

Strange, all around.
 
UPDATE:

No photos, video or official reports that document 47 stories of fire involvement.

UPDATE: Why on earth would you, as an alleged ex-firefighter expect there to be such things in order to validate firefighter reports of a building being "fully involved"?

You were a firefighter once upon a time, weren't you? Or were you?

You keep saying more and more stupid things that make me doubt it.
 
LashL,

I understand your admiration for your own department.

You can have whatever concocted version of me you wish. But please don't extrapolate that to the SFD. They are a very cutting edge department and you only have to research that to discover their quality.

I have no "concocted version of [you]". I have read, I researched, and I have drawn my conclusions based upon a combination of your posts on this particular topic and what my research has uncovered on this particular topic.
You have made claims that result in the obvious conclusion that if you were actually a firefighter for the Seattle fire department, they clearly don't have very high standards. So, despite your late attempt to distance your prior posts from the SFD, sorry, too late.

You are the one who wrote posts that led to the obvious conclusion that you are entirely ignorant of some very basic firefighting knowledge and issues that any professional firefighter would/should have known.

You are the one who wrote posts that led to the obvious conclusion that your ignorance of basic firefighting knowledge and issues is reflective of the standards of the Seattle fire department, as you claim to have worked as a firefighter for the Seattle fire department.

Don't blame me for the fact that you've allowed your ignorance and failings to be the face of the Seattle Fire Department to those who read it that way here. That is entirely your own doing. When you post outlandish claims online and simultaneously claim a certain level of expertise that you attribute to a specific entity, well, the obvious inference is entirely reasonable.

You allowed your ignorance and failings on simple, basic, firefighting issues to become the face of the Seattle Fire Department. So, you've noone to blame but yourself for the bad name you're giving them.

Your ignorance of firefighting is starting to show.

Oh, really? One of us is ignorant about firefighting, but it isn't me.

We had 4 shifts - so you had a 25% chance of getting a fire. Then you divide that by 33 stations. So, to have a well involved or fully involved fire in your first response district was not that common.

Oh boy. You really haven't a clue, have you? While Seattle may still operate on the (very old and outmoded) 4 shift system, your attempt at equating that mathematically and statistically to the number of fires that a given station might be exposed to in the manner you did is absolute nonsense.

Either you knew that (as you would if you were an experienced and knowledgeable firefighter) or you were being deliberately dishonest by spouting what you knew or should have known were utterly false statistics. Which is it, Russell? Ignorance or dishonesty? Those really are the only two choices.

An experienced and knowledgeable firefighter would know that it is ridiculous, inaccurate, and not reflective of reality to simply take the number of calls and divide that number by four and purport that the result is in any way accurate or meaningful as to the number of fires that a firefighter would/might encounter. An experienced and knowledgeable firefighter would know that any given 8 hour segment of the day is not equal to the others, and would know that more fires occur between certain hours of the day than others, and would know, read and distill the statistics properly instead of making simplistic and inaccurate assertions such as those you have made here, Russell.

An experienced firefighter would also know that it is ridiculous, meaningless, and wholly inaccurate to purport to ascertain and opine upon the number of fires that any given firefighter would or could be expected to encounter in a given time period on the basis of dividing the number of fires by the number of stations, as you have purported to do here. An experienced and knowledgeable firefighter would know that there are vast differences in the number of fires within the geographical areas of various stations.

Again, your obvious inabilty to respond to and/or explain your inability to respond to simple things that experienced and knowledgeable firefighters would know without batting an eye really make me wonder about you, Russell.

What department are your supporting? I will go review their fire data to see the number of runs and the nature of runs to show that fully involved structure fires are not that common in mid-sized cities.

Based on your prior posts and your obvious inability to apply even the most basic mathematics and your inability to interpret even the most basic statistical data, I have my doubts about your ability to analyze or interpret the fire data. Based on other posts of yours which demonstrate your inability to even define "fully involved", I also doubt your ability to analyze the data for the purposes that you now claim you will analyze the data for. But I think it might be amusing at least to watch you try.

That said, my partner's primary station is Toronto 331 - so by all means, look up the stats.
 
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What is the department you are supporting in contrast to my experience?

I want to evaluate their yearly run statistics and fire data.

As I said above, I seriously doubt your abilities to interpret the statistics or the raw data but do feel free to try. My partner's primary station is 331 - Toronto Fire Service.
 
I wouldn't trust you with the name or phone number of one of my friends if it was my last breath.

You have an unpredictible dual nature and maliciousness that is not worthy of one ounce of trust from any open and honest person in my opinion.

Translation: Russell cannot provide any names or sources, as usual, and he is peeved that I called him on his alleged facts and evidence that he cannot provide.

I'm sorry that your inability to do so leads you to malign me unfairly and without basis, but I'm not at all surprised, Russell. I am not unpredictable, malicious, or untrustworthy. Your baseless assertions are only indicative of your inability to respond meaningfully to my posts. Typical tinhat behaviour on your part - when you can't handle the message, you attack the messenger and ignore the message.

You presented yourself as an honest researcher when you first arrived here. That was a lie. You don't like the fact that some here, including me, called you on your lies and that you were unable to support them with anything even remotely resembling facts or evidence.

Oh well. That's your problem. Suck it up, big boy. Around here, you have to either put up or shut up. You have thusfar been unable to do the former and you're apparently unwilling to do the latter.

You really should stop trying to blame others for your own failures.
 
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LashL overanalysed this one:

We had 4 shifts - so you had a 25% chance of getting a fire. Then you divide that by 33 stations. So, to have a well involved or fully involved fire in your first response district was not that common.

You see, his math is actually perfect. This is, in fact, a testament to the absolutely stellar leadership he has provided to the Seattle Fire Department.

Consider. If the chance of encountering a fire on one of 4 shifts is 25%/33 (for the number of stations) this means that they have consistently reduced the number of fires occuring in Seattle to (on average) one per day, for the entire city. Not only that, but they have nullified all risk-factors so that one fire happens in a purely random distribution patten over the life of time observed in his career.

I demand you stop this criticism immediately, considering that this means in the Seattle area, there are only (on average) 365 fires a year of any kind! That is the lowest rate in the nation and probably the world. I think we should collectively nominate him for an award of some kind. Perhaps we can help him set up a speaking tour to help the other Fire Departments rise to the standards he has helped implement.
 
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Pardalis said:
Russell, what causes a "continuous source of smoke"?
Russell Pickering said:
This response is just to give you an idea of the type of stuff I am not responding to in the future.

LashL said:
Why not just answer the straightforward question, Russell? You being a former firefighter and all.

Russell Pickering said:
Please direct me to the name of the fire department you support so I can factually respond to your accusations.

Eh? What "accusations"? This was a simple request for you to answer Pardalis' question. You really do have some reading comprehension problems, don't you?

Why don't you just answer his question instead of playing silly games? It's a simple question that you, as a former firefighter, should easily be able to answer. So, why don't you?
 
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Your blind obedience to government reports and the fact that your are not truly questioning 9/11 is your problem. Not mine.

The people who lied you into a war and have killed 3000 American soldiers and as of recent reports 150,000 Iraqis are not worthy of trust.

They lied and they killed.

Meanwhile you want to bicker over your interpretation of my past experience as a firefighter? The opposite of killing is what I did.

You just don't get it do you pal?

You wonder why people attack you when you make generalising sweeping statements like this.

You have this stereotypical picture of those who opposes you. All sheep, all blissfully aware that Iraq is an appalling dreadful situation brought about by one disastrous foreign policy decision after another.

You paint people as some form of naive, gullible idiot that simply laps it all up.

Yes I attacked you pal and I make no excuse for doing so, and I will continue to do so.

Why?

Because you use the deaths of 3000 US soldiers and the deaths of countless innocent Iraqis to promote your crackpot theories. You use the Iraq war as some form of shield, a justification for you to continue to promote this madness.

This you do with full intend and in the full knowledge that many people do not agree with war. It is you that levels the insults pal.
 
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UPDATE: Why on earth would you, as an alleged ex-firefighter expect there to be such things in order to validate firefighter reports of a building being "fully involved"?

You were a firefighter once upon a time, weren't you? Or were you?

You keep saying more and more stupid things that make me doubt it.

There is somebody on this thread now that is part of an agency in King County who certified me medically.

I have given them permission to investigate anything about me and share it here.

Ask them.

Your insults of the SFD are based on ignorance.
 
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An experienced and knowledgeable firefighter would know that it is ridiculous, inaccurate, and not reflective of reality to simply take the number of calls and divide that number by four and purport that the result is in any way accurate or meaningful as to the number of fires that a firefighter would/might encounter. An experienced and knowledgeable firefighter would know that any given 8 hour segment of the day is not equal to the others, and would know that more fires occur between certain hours of the day than others, and would know, read and distill the statistics properly instead of making simplistic and inaccurate assertions such as those you have made here, Russell.

An experienced firefighter would also know that it is ridiculous, meaningless, and wholly inaccurate to purport to ascertain and opine upon the number of fires that any given firefighter would or could be expected to encounter in a given time period on the basis of dividing the number of fires by the number of stations, as you have purported to do here. An experienced and knowledgeable firefighter would know that there are vast differences in the number of fires within the geographical areas of various stations.

Again, your obvious inabilty to respond to and/or explain your inability to respond to simple things that experienced and knowledgeable firefighters would know without batting an eye really make me wonder about you, Russell.

We worked 24 hour shifts.

You are losing it.

Yes - the lower income ares such as Rainier Valley had more fires than say Magnolia.
 
Really? I'm surprised that's no illegal. Remind me to never need a fireman in the USA. I'd rather not entrust my life to someone who has been awake for an entire day straight.

-Gumboot

There's discussion about it on a firefighters' board here:

http://www.firehall.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1355

post #4 confirms that this is how they do things in Seattle.

I'm assuming Russell's 25% quote is based on a 24 hours on 72 hours off shift system.

Given that it involves being on call, its unlikely that a firefighter would be going to a fire without any sleep. Assuming the shift ran from something like 9am to 9am the next day and the firemean went to bed at 11pm - they'd have to be fighting fires constantly from 11pm to 9am to avoid getting any sleep at all.

Edited to add:

A comment I hear often is what if you have to deal with numerous fires or emergencies in a 24 shift (won't you be too tired) If you have a good officer this is not a problem as he should have the safety of the crew foremost in his obligations to the department and the community. This means crew replacement via existing policy ie. call back/in. If you do not have these systems in place you should be looking into this before venturing in to 24's.

http://www.firehall.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10993&postcount=12
 
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Russell, I really couldn't give a fig about your past as a firefighter. Personally, I believe you, but it doesn't make a lick of difference as far as I'm concerned.

I'm purely concerned with your views and arguments about the evidence.

Please answer the following, or explain why it belongs with stupid questions unworthy of response:
No one here ever made the claim of 47 stories of fire involvement. Dozens of eyewitness testimonies have been presented of "full" involvement.

This fully involved building burned unchecked for about seven hours. Do you agree or disagree?
 
Really? I'm surprised that's no illegal. Remind me to never need a fireman in the USA. I'd rather not entrust my life to someone who has been awake for an entire day straight.

-Gumboot
It's typical in the US. In Chicago, it's 24 on, 48 off. But they do sleep - firehouses have beds, kitchens, rec rooms, etc. The rationale is that this builds comraderie and trust necessary for those whose lives may depend on their fellow firefighter.

Most firefighters also do other jobs on their days off, typically in construction.
 
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Most of the questions are ridiculous and the possibility of presenting anything that is not responded to by pathetic personal attack is about zero from my experience.
Your refusal to discuss the evidence at hand and engage others in debate is what gets you called out here Russell. You will not be given a free pass here (no one is) simply because your feelings get hurt when you get called on repeatedly making false statements. Perhaps you're not ready for the big leagues yet, and would be more comfortable talking to the yes-man 14 year olds back at LC.
You ignore the evidence no matter what it is. Video and scientific papers are not enough for you.
You have presented no evidence! Cherry picked quotes of people using similies are hardly evidence Russell. And I'm aware of no scientific papers that disagree materially w/ the accepted course of events, if you have some post them.
I did not ever say I have any idea what any of them believe today. Since Gravy or you or anybody else here hasn't actually interviewed them, neither do you.
I'd expect that the hundreds of surviving 9/11 reesponders would have said something by now if they believed that there were bombs in the WTC buildings that day. None have that I'm aware of (I have no idea what Sentinel thinks, he is unable to formulate a coherent sentence), and I have no doubt that some would have come forward if they had been threatened. You can't keep these things secret for long Russell. Put up or concede.
Just like Bill Manning. I never said he believes in anything like a CT version of things, I just documented the destruction of evidence that upset him via his words.
Bill Manning got exactly what he was calling for in the NIST investigation. It is dishonest of you to continue to cite him as if he is still calling for an investigation, not the hallmark of an honest researcher Russell.
You ask me to do interviews but all you do is read the Gravyized version of the world and parrot it. This is Skeptianity and I am now becoming aware of the dogma and the preachers. Trust me when I say that I am even more disappointed than you are about the situation here.
I and many others were here arguing against the 9/11 CT long before Gravy joined this forum. The old threads are here for all to see, your accusations make absolutely no sense. All Gravy did when he first got here was to collate all the arguments we'd been making prior to his arrival into a handy guide. And being a NYC resident gave him the opportunity to confront the 9/11 CT nonsense in person. And quite effectively too, as it's obvious from your constant squeeling about him that he's stepping on all the right toes. And now, unable to refute any of his facts, you resort to name-calling... prove tha facts wrong Russell, that's the only way to dismiss Gravy.
Your blind obedience to government reports and the fact that your are not truly questioning 9/11 is your problem. Not mine.
Tell me russell, what have you found lacking in the NIST reports that none of the hundreds of thousands of qualified engineers, trained for years in such matters, have been unable to find? I notice you avoid Makey like the plague, that's a shame. Yopu ignore a genuine expert and latch on to crackpots. Way to research Russell!
The people who lied you into a war and have killed 3000 American soldiers and as of recent reports 150,000 Iraqis are not worthy of trust.

They lied and they killed.
Politics is thataway ------>
This is irrelevant to the 9/11 CT you so desperately want to believe in.
Meanwhile you want to bicker over your interpretation of my past experience as a firefighter? The opposite of killing is what I did.
I never did, and in fact couldn't care less.

Now, I've answered every single point you made, while you've done nothing but evade and twist from my simple, direct questions:
Did the named firefighters who related the condition of WTC 7 lie about it?
It only requires a "yes" or "no" response Russell.

The obvious implication of your posts here is that you think they are lying, and may even be in on it. Is that an accurate summary?
 
To reiterate, just in case it has slipped past:

Russell,

I've been following this thread for some time and I'm losing track of the parts of your argument that are concerned with the evidence.

Putting aside your feelings about the behaviour of some of the posters here and any issues of your status as a former firefighter, could you please answer the following questions?

1. How do you account for the quantity of smoke coming from WTC7, as shown in the photos at this post http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2081821&postcount=443 ?

2. How do you account for the testimony gathered in Gravy's paper? Are the witness mistaken? Lying? Is there an equal amount of contradictory testimony regarding the fires in the building? If there is, can you provide links to it?

3. If the building wasn't in danger of collapse from fire and structural damage, why did the FDNY pull men out from a collapse zone around the building, stopping the search for survivors in that area?

4. Do you accept that NIST believes the likely cause of the collapse is fire and structural damage and that there is no evidence of explosives?

5. If the final NIST report concludes that NIST's current hypothesis is correct and also that none of the hypothetical blast scenarios are plausible, will you accept it?

6. Do you currently have an alternative hypothesis that explains how the building was wired to explode, how the explosives survived the fires for so long and how they were finally detonated? If you don't currently have a hypothesis, do you plan to develop one? Do you plan on consulting any demolition extperts or structural engineers in regard to this?

If you feel you've already answered these questions, would you mind repeating yourself? I've not seen anything really clear in the thread so far (it is getting long).

Thanks

Matthew


I would really apprecaite your answers to these questions.
 
The obvious implication of your posts here is that you think they are lying, and may even be in on it. Is that an accurate summary?
This is KEY.



Russell, if your theory is true, the demolition experts and firefighting people on the ground physically inspecting WTC7 and coming to the conclusion that a collapse was inevitable are either lying, in on it, or stupid.

Otherwise, that testimony would at least make you pause and ask yourself some serious questions about your claims.
 

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