Abortion? The final conclusions?

[bob_kark]

If we define an individual being as a sentient person who can live without a host body, then the fetus is not an individual being.

It's still not a complicated issue. A fetus is not an individual being.

being - a living thing

human being - a person

Do you see no difference between a parasite and a human being at all?

 

[AWPrime]

being - a living thing

human being - a person

Former is correct, the latter is incorrect. For most human being are persons doesn't mean that anything with human DNA is a person.

 

[gethane]

I married and graduated college, got pregnant on purpose and had a baby. I was 22. It changed me forever, as these things do. Then I got pregnant when my son was just 9 months old (complicated birth control failure). A little traumatic, but I had found that I loved babies, so onward I went. When my second was 9 months old, I got pregnant again. This was a lot more traumatic. My exhusband wanted me to have an abortion. Ironic, since we'd spent all of our college years debating abortion. He was, and somehow remains, pro-life. I am pro-choice. I dragged it out and dragged it out until I finally just said I wasn't going to have an abortion. Pro-choice also means I get to choose to have the baby.

So three kids, in three years. Marriage on the rocks. Debt. All the lovely stuff. Got back onto our feet, moved "home," bought a house. Exhusband got a vascectomy. Divorced when the 3rd was 4.

Remarriage. Undecided on whether we should have a baby on our own. Serious question about whether I could conceive. I'd had several bouts of PID in the intervening years (thanks cheating exhusband!) and told by two doctors that i wouldn't be able to have more children due to fallopian scarring. I was on the pill. And then I had a birth control failure. We were thrilled. Had the baby. When he was around 17 months old, I conceived again. We were using condoms for birth control, but decided to wing it on day 30 of my cycle. Surely my period was just around the corner so I wouldn't get pregnant. Hah! This was a bit more stressful but still very happy with my 5 children. I love babies, breastfeeding, co-sleeping. Don't mind diapers or getting up in the middle of the night. I'm just a natural mother type (shocking the hell out of me and everyone who knew me prior).

I didn't mention, however, the serious health problems. Though I have "normal" blood pressure while not pregnant, while pregnant I have high blood pressure. I was on bedrest for 4 of 5 pregnancies. I was hospitalized (overnight) around 31 weeks with my last and she was born at slightly under 37 weeks and spent 8 days in the NICU. I had c-sections on number 1, 4 and 5. I had gestational diabetes with my last. Being pregnant has been very hard on my body.

And still, I'm pro-choice. Why? Well even though I'm "poor" I was married each time I got pregnant. I had (and have) supportive parents. I'm a college graduate with some grad school. I own my own home. And I like parenting. I love having babies, never had post partum depression. Sleep deprivation doesn't bother me much.

But lots and lots of people facing unwanted pregnancies do NOT have the same circumstances that I do. They don't have supportive spouses or families, they don't have their education, they don't own a home. Another baby could mean dropping out of college, having to move to new, more expensive apartment (due to occupancy laws).

So, regardless that I love babies and think they add everything to my life, how can I force another woman to make a decision simply because MY life is good, regardless of what circumstances HER life is in?

If I don't trust the government to spend my money wisely (though I'm liberal, I know many conservatives feel the same) how in the world can I trust them to make even more personal and life changing decisions about my uterus!

I am troubled by abortions past the 14th or 15th week. It's about that time that I "feel" the baby becoming real and separate from myself. However, I don't get to be king of the world and tell everyone else they need to feel and think the same way I do. And I seriously do not understand why political conservatives, who don't trust the government to tax them responsibly, or to school their children, or a myriad of other things, seem to feel fine and dandy about the government deciding if they are going to become parents.

Abortion is not ever going to be solved. It is not a black or white issue. The world has had people getting pregnant on accident since time began. That isn't going to change. We don't need to be happy and celebrate abortions, but in countries that take a more realistic view of sex, procreation and birth control, the abortion rate is a lot smaller than here in the moral majority America.

5 kids - 15, 13, 12, 3 and 10 months. Though all my babies weren't planned, they WERE all wanted.

Longest post I've been able to type for months. She'll probably wake up now after her refreshing evening "nap" and be up for hours.

 

[thaiboxerken]

being - a living thing

human being - a person

Do you see no difference between a parasite and a human being at all?

The fallacy you are using is called equivocation. You know what definitions I'm using due to the context of my posts, yet you've decided to substitute other definitions in a vain attempt to confuse people. A fetus is not a human being, it is a human life-form. It is not an individual and is dependant on a host being. It is more akin to a parasite than a person.

 

[bob_kark]

Former is correct, the latter is incorrect. For most human being are persons doesn't mean that anything with human DNA is a person.

I was simply clarifying for TBK, not making a statement on abortion. The difference between a being and a human being is that a being is any living creature, where as a human being is a person.

 

[bob_kark]

The fallacy you are using is called equivocation. You know what definitions I'm using due to the context of my posts, yet you've decided to substitute other definitions in a vain attempt to confuse people. A fetus is not a human being, it is a human life-form. It is not an individual and is dependant on a host being. It is more akin to a parasite than a person.

No, I'm defining the difference because the difference is quite vast. You made the statement, I am actually trying to clarify that statement to rectify the confusion you raised. Now, what is the difference between a human being and a human life-form? How is a parasite not an individual? How is an infant not dependent on a host being?

 

[Bill Thompson]

I think it should always be allowed.

It is the best way to use natural selection to get rid of the genes of persons who are such worthless to society that they would want and ask for an abortion and get themselves into a situation where they would think of having an abortion.

They should spay the women free of charge if they ask for it when they get an abortion too.

 

[bob_kark]

I think it should always be allowed.

It is the best way to use natural selection to get rid of the genes of persons who are such worthless to society that they would want and ask for an abortion and get themselves into a situation where they would think of having an abortion.

They should spay the women free of charge if they ask for it when they get an abortion too.

You're completely clueless.

 

[Bill Thompson]

You're completely clueless.

If I am being ironic, it is you who is clueless.

But, entertain me, regardless. What part of what I said do you disagree with? I think no matter what side of the argument you fall on, offering to tie a woman's tubes for free when she goes in for an abortion would be a good thing. It would keep her from returning if you are against abortion and if you are pro-choice, this would be a just a choice too. Noone is imposing this on anyone.

 

[bob_kark]

It is the best way to use natural selection to get rid of the genes of persons who are such worthless to society that they would want and ask for an abortion and get themselves into a situation where they would think of having an abortion.

This sir, is not irony, this is tragedy. You'd do well to learn the difference. The world is not as black and white as you'd wish to believe, some of us have to live in it. Can you say with no doubt in your mind that you've never made a mistake out of fear, ignorance, or lack of proper judgement? Have you lived such an exemplary life that you can judge the worth of others based upon a simple mistake?

These people, who you look upon from your high castle with great disdain, know what they are getting into. They know that they are ripping a life from their womb. Some of them may not get it, but trust me, when you're strapped to a table for an hour or two with a group of strangers shoving cold, hard instruments in places your closest friends would never come near it is not an easy task.

While you feel it easy to simple dismiss these filthy whores as common trash, have you ever had to deal with the deep gashing traumatic scars of rape or incest? Have you ever had to decide whether it was more selfish of you to terminate your child or have it live without a fully formed brain? Have you ever become suicidal to the point where you're risking your own child's life?

How dare you? Irony or not. How dare you judge these people as being worthless. You sir, are a sick, twisted individual and I hope one day you realize what an ass you've just made of yourself.

 

[Bill Thompson]

This sir, is not irony, this is tragedy. You'd do well to learn the difference. The world is not as black and white as you'd wish to believe, some of us have to live in it. Can you say with no doubt in your mind that you've never made a mistake out of fear, ignorance, or lack of proper judgement? Have you lived such an exemplary life that you can judge the worth of others based upon a simple mistake?

These people, who you look upon from your high castle with great disdain, know what they are getting into. They know that they are ripping a life from their womb. Some of them may not get it, but trust me, when you're strapped to a table for an hour or two with a group of strangers shoving cold, hard instruments in places your closest friends would never come near it is not an easy task.

While you feel it easy to simple dismiss these filthy whores as common trash, have you ever had to deal with the deep gashing traumatic scars of rape or incest? Have you ever had to decide whether it was more selfish of you to terminate your child or have it live without a fully formed brain? Have you ever become suicidal to the point where you're risking your own child's life?

How dare you? Irony or not. How dare you judge these people as being worthless. You sir, are a sick, twisted individual and I hope one day you realize what an ass you've just made of yourself.

I do not understand your anger.

I will ask this again. What part of what I said do you disagree with? I think no matter what side of the argument you fall on, offering to tie a woman's tubes for free when she goes in for an abortion would be a good thing. It would keep her from returning if you are against abortion and if you are pro-choice, this would be a just a choice too. Noone is imposing this on anyone.

 

[bob_kark]

I do not understand your anger.

I will ask this again. What part of what I said do you disagree with? I think no matter what side of the argument you fall on, offering to tie a woman's tubes for free when she goes in for an abortion would be a good thing. It would keep her from returning if you are against abortion and if you are pro-choice, this would be a just a choice too. Noone is imposing this on anyone.

I disagree with you referring to people who have had an abortion as worthless. However, I see now that you must have a mental defect as you are unable to tell why you are as wildly offensive as you are. I'm terrribly sorry about that. You may want to place a warning on your signature line so that people won't make the same mistake.

 

[Bill Thompson]

I disagree with you referring to people who have had an abortion as worthless. However, I see now that you must have a mental defect as you are unable to tell why you are as wildly offensive as you are. I'm terrribly sorry about that. You may want to place a warning on your signature line so that people won't make the same mistake.

Well, just as a numbers game, you have to agree that most are uncaring of themselves and thus uncaring of the life they carry or perhaps they don't understand that their worth is not magically greater than the potential worth of the life they are creating or have created. Sure, you can pick out a few people who are in their position because of a mistake they regret. But not all. And thus, offering such a program for them to choose and if they eagerly choose it (that is the key, I think) it would be a benefit to natural selection. Which will benefit us all.

Now, why is this something so huge to you that you result to personal attacks and name-calling. The world is comic to those who think and tragic to those who feel. And that means the whole absolute world. Nothing is excluded.

And just so you know, I am using phrases like "most are uncaring of themselves..." because I think if I say something like that on the front-end you will fly into a rage and disregard the rest of what I have typed.

Most and almost always when people resort to personal and sophomoric attacks on someone like calling them mentally ill or clueless it is often because their arsenal of logically retorts have been exhausted and they cannot fess up.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Now, what is the difference between a human being and a human life-form?

A being is sapient.

How is a parasite not an individual?

Because it's dependant on a host body.

How is an infant not dependent on a host being?

An infant can survive without a host body, it is actually independant of any host bodies. It is not attached to any host body.

Try harder, because your childish arguments are rather boring and pointless.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Look at it this way. It is clear this is a disturbing issue. Wouldn't it be a good thing if we move closer to a goal where there were fewer abortions?

And so my idea is a good one. Whatever the cause of the pregnancy might be, going through with the abortion and then offering a free fixing to stop any future pregnancies would be a good thing.

Trust me. The next generation there would be fewer abortions.

Regardless of the rage you might have surrounding my idea. In the end, it is a good one.

A world with very few unwanted pregnancies. This is the best way to reach such a world.

 

[Bill Thompson]

A being is sapient.

[...]

Because it's dependant on a host body.

[...]

An infant can survive without a host body, it is actually independant of any host bodies. It is not attached to any host body.

Try harder, because your childish arguments are rather boring and pointless.

What are you suggesting? Are you suggesting that it is ok to have an abortion if the fetus cannot survive outside the womb.

Whew, you know, I don't know anyone who could live with themself after making that call. Who is so great to decide that their life is more important than a future life. What give you the authority to make that decision that a future person does not get a crack at a full life that you have had. He or she might have a better life and be worth more.

All the more reason why I think my idea of providing tieing a woman's tubes if she gets an abortion is a good idea.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Actually brain dead humans aren't people and we don't give mentally retarded people the same rights as normal mature humans.

If brain dead humans aren't "people" why then is killing them against the law if they wanted to be kept on life support?

For to be people you need persons and being a person is more than some DNA.

Being a person is being able to live on your own outside of the womb.

That finger doesn't need you specificly it can be supported by technological means. But left out in the open it will die as will a baby in the same situation.

You clearly aren't reading what i'm saying here. VIABLE babies who are a few weeks from delivery can live outside of the mothers womb without technology.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Always should be allowed. A fetus is not an individual being and is more akin to being a parasite than a person.

This has already been addressed. If the baby can live outside of the womb naturally then it's not a bodypart nor a parasite anymore than a grown identical twin shairing your liver is a parasite.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Pro-choice 'till the end. I have seen the results of too many pregnancies by desperate girls and women ...

"Pro choice" and "Pro life" are loaded words that convey little meaning. Of course most people support choice and support life. However the key terms here should be "Stance on abortion" not "pro choice" or "pro life" or any other emotionally loaded words.

Why do many "Pro choice" people oppose the choice of individuals to do durgs?

Why do many "pro life" people support the slaughter of wildlife and support the death penalty?

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

I think it should always be allowed.

It is the best way to use natural selection to get rid of the genes of persons who are such worthless to society that they would want and ask for an abortion and get themselves into a situation where they would think of having an abortion.

They should spay the women free of charge if they ask for it when they get an abortion too.

You're confused here.

You don't know anything about genetics or "nature vs nurture".

Plus you're confusing the reasons why many women get abortions.

Firstly, Just because a woman is very pathetic in life and amounts to nothing does not mean she is genetically inferior. Nor does it mean her child will be similar to her in lifestyle or intelligence.

Secondly, Many women get abortions because they are too young to care for the baby and going through child birth would be an emotional strain on them and ruin their lifes. Sure they should of thought of this prior to having sex but no one is perfect. To say that these women are somehow genetically inferior is absurd.