Should torture be Top Secret?

[Nova Land]

Yahoo news had a link to an interesting Washington Post story this morning that the Bush administration is seeking to prevent people locked up in secret CIA prisons from revealing the details of their treatment while in captivity.

U.S. Seeks Silence on CIA Prisons
Court Is Asked to Bar Detainees From Talking About Interrogations

The Bush administration has told a federal judge that terrorism suspects held in secret CIA prisons should not be allowed to reveal details of the "alternative interrogation methods" that their captors used to get them to talk.

The government says in new court filings that those interrogation methods are now among the nation's most sensitive national security secrets and that their release -- even to the detainees' own attorneys -- "could reasonably be expected to cause extremely grave damage"...

Because Khan "was detained by CIA in this program, he may have come into possession of information, including locations of detention, conditions of detention, and alternative interrogation techniques that is classified at the TOP SECRET//SCI level," an affidavit from CIA Information Review Officer Marilyn A. Dorn states, using the acronym for "sensitive compartmented information"...

Captives who have spent time in the secret prisons, and their advocates, have said the detainees were sometimes treated harshly with techniques that included "waterboarding," which simulates drowning. Bush has declared that the administration will not tolerate the use of torture but has pressed to retain the use of unspecified "alternative" interrogation methods.

People in the Bush administration, and a number of their supporters, have tried to spin away the reports of torture that have come out in recent years. Most of these rhetorical efforts (such as the attempt to dismiss mistreatment of prisoners as the equivalent of fraternity hazing, or to redefine torture to exclude anything which doesn't cause death or serious long-term physical injury) have been of the kind which make one unsure whether to laugh or cry. Now the Bush administration seems to be trying to solve the problem of how to deal with reports of torture by making it illegal to make such a report.

The US government has said we do not engage in torture. If torture is being done at the direction of our government, the US people have a right to know about it and responsible reporters have a moral obligation to report it.

Torturers are criminals. A policy which makes it a crime to report a crime is wrong.

 

[Nova Land]

In the course of the story about government efforts to prevent people from talking about their treatment while being held prisoner, the Post provides details about one such prisoner.

[Khaled al-Masri is] a released detainee who said he was held with Khan in a dingy CIA prison called "the salt pit" in Afghanistan. There, prisoners slept on the floor, wore diapers and were given tainted water that made them vomit, Masri said. American interrogators treated him roughly, he said, and told him he "was in a land where there were no laws."

Khan's family did not learn of his whereabouts until Bush announced his transfer in September, more than three years after he was seized in Pakistan.

The family said Khan was staying with a brother in Karachi, Pakistan, in March 2003 when men, who were not in uniform, burst into the apartment late one night and put hoods over the heads of Khan, his brother Mohammad and his brother's wife. The couple's 1-month-old son was also seized.

Another brother, Mahmood Khan, who has lived in the United States since 1989, said in an interview this week that the four were hustled into police vehicles and taken to an undisclosed location, where they were separated and held in windowless rooms. His sister-in-law and her baby remained together...

This story needs to be pursued to see if the allegations are, in fact, true.

If past performance is anything to go on, Sean Hannity and other participants in the Bush administration echo chamber will be doing their best to ridicule this, minimize this, and to accuse anyone who reports this story with hating America and wanting the terrorists to win. Which is a shame. Allegations of this sort are too serious to be treated as a political football.

"My country, right or wrong. When right to be kept right; when wrong to be put right." A Republican said that. I heartily endorse that sentiment.

 

[Dancing David]

Sung to star wars theme.

"Star courts,we need star courts, torture is the way to go."

This is bogus, secrecy is needed at times but when politics is involved, you need oversight and following the constitution. the fifth amendmend does not apply to citizens only, it is a restriction on the governemnt, period.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

The constitution does not state that these are rights of citizens, they are the rights of anyone. regardless of who or where they are.

except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger

I interpret this to mean that the fifth does not apply to members of the armed forces, but I am not a lawyer nor do i play one on TV.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Horses and Barns

Should torture be Top Secret?

Too late, eh? The cat is out of the bag.

DR

 

[Charlie Monoxide]

That is really hard to fathom. If someone is tortured they aren't allowed to reveal or discus the torture method???

Who comes up with these ideas?

Charlie (Kafka?) Monoxide

 

[Darth Rotor]

That is really hard to fathom. If someone is tortured they aren't allowed to reveal or discus the torture method???

Who comes up with these ideas?

Charlie (Kafka?) Monoxide

Good point. I suspect that to enforce this rule, you have to kill them, or cut out their tongues, so they can never testify.

Titus Andronicus for fifty, Alex.

DR

 

[ImaginalDisc]

I think the most definitive policy on torture is from retired Lt. Colonel Dave Grossman, in his book "On Killing."
http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?PAGE=PRODUCT&PROD_ID=123165&fp=F&kid=12851&cid=51798

Whatever your politics, I strongly recommend this book. He used to teach pyschology at West Point and had a special lesson about torture. He said, "torture is treason. If I catch you doing it in my unit, I will shoot you myself."

His reasoning is that torture is not only unreliable and often damaging to the psychology of the soldiers who do it, but it destroys whatever trust the P.O.W.'s have in their captor's decency. If you torture prisoners, the enemy will be less willing to surrender. In World War II, American soldiers had a well deserved reputation earned in WWI of treating prisoners very well. This reputation saved many lives, because German soliders were much more willing to surrender when things were looking bad for them. Even a single incident of torture can steel an enemy's resolve against you, prolong battles, and cost lives on both sides.

The best policy the Bush administration could have had regarding torture is to fully cooperate with the military investigation of it, and to have sent a clear singal that they won't tolerate it. Of course, Bush did the opposite of the right thing.

 

[Nova Land]

I suspect that to enforce this rule, you have to kill them, or cut out their tongues, so they can never testify.

I haven't read or checked into the details of the story closely enough to venture an informed opinion, but my suspicion is that this is aimed at journalists and the news media. If information about how detainees are interrogated is Top Secret, then anyone who obtains this information and attempts to disseminate it is facing serious criminal charges.

It is sad that actions such as the torture of prisoners have occurred, not to mention other shameful things done by or on behalf of our government over the years that have been brought to light by investigative reporters. But it is even sadder to have an administration which, confronted with news that such things may be occurring, is more concerned with preventing leaks about these acts than with preventing the acts in the first place.

 

[Nova Land]

I think the most definitive policy on torture is from retired Lt. Colonel Dave Grossman, in his book "On Killing"...

His reasoning is that torture is not only unreliable and often damaging to the psychology of the soldier who do it, but it destroys whatever trust the P.O.W.'s have in their captor's decency. If you torture prisoners, the enemy will be less willing to surrender. In World War II, American soldiers had a well deserved reputation earning in WWI of treating prisoners very well. This reputation saved many lives, because German soliders were much more willing to surrender when things were looking bad for them. Even a single incident of torture can steel an enemy's resolve against you, prolong battles, and cost lives on both sides.

Yes. Not only is torture wrong in a moral sense but it is also wrong in a practical sense.

The best policy the Bush administration could have had regarding torture is to fully cooperate with the military investigation of it, and to have sent a clear signal that they won't tolerate.

I agree with you very strongly on that as well. I look forward to the day when the people in charge of government take such a policy as a given.

Sadly that day looks to be fairly far in the future. I can see very few people in either major US political party whom I would trust to react that way.

 

[senorpogo]

Because Khan "was detained by CIA in this program, he may have come into possession of information, including locations of detention, conditions of detention, and alternative interrogation techniques that is classified at the TOP SECRET//SCI level," an affidavit from CIA Information Review Officer Marilyn A. Dorn states, using the acronym for "sensitive compartmented information"...

It's genius in a sick, twisted way.

Even if you weren't a security threat before, torturing you provides you with classified information, namely the torture techniques, and thus makes you a security threat.

If you weren't a threat before going in to Gitmo, you'll at least be one on the way out.

 

[Dancing David]

It's genius in a sick, twisted way.

Even if you weren't a security threat before, torturing you provides you with classified information, namely the torture techniques, and thus makes you a security threat.

If you weren't a threat before going in to Gitmo, you'll at least be one on the way out.

Catch-22

 

[senorpogo]

Catch-22

That's some catch, that Catch-22.

 

[bob_kark]

Greg the Torturer: Listen Akim, I can't torture you unless you sign this Non Disclosure Agreement.

Akim: But... But... I'm a very bad man! I pray to Allah for the downfall of the infidels, I threw a rock at your tank, I even burned your American flag! What else must I do to be tortured?!

Greg the Toturer: I know, I know! If it were up to me, I'd be smearing your body with menstrual blood and force feeding you a Mc Rib sandwich right now! But you have to understand Akim, this is bigger than you and me. If people found out we were torturing you... they may get upset.

Akim: No! That is a lie! Everyone wants to torture Akim!

Greg the Torturer: No, its true! I swear! People actually consider it to be a crime!

Akim: Why?! Why would they believe such craziness?

Greg the Torturer: It's a crazy world Akim.

Akim: Yes, this is true my friend. But, doesn't everyone know that you torture your prisoners? What about Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo?

Greg the Torturer: Well, we convinced them that it was the work of a few deviant individuals, not part of our grand strategy.

Akim: And they bought it?! You are a lying dog! There is no way they would go for it!

Greg the Torturer: No, they totally believed us! (laughing)

Akim: (laughing) Oh, that is too much my friend!

Greg the Torturer: Ahhhh... So, Akim, I'm going to need you to sign this.

Akim: But, if I sign this, I can't tell all my brohems at the mosque about all the fun we have!

Greg the Torturer: I know Akim, but your alternative is that we don't torture you. In fact, we may even have to release you...

Akim: Well, when you put it that way... Where do I sign, my man?!

Greg the Torturer: I knew you'd come around Akim. I'm so glad you decided to sign. Now, take off your clothes and put that bag on your head!

Akim: All right! Naked pyramid time!!! Awesome!!

{Fade to black}

 

[Ziggurat]

Greg the Torturer: I knew you'd come around Akim. I'm so glad you decided to sign. Now, take off your clothes and put that bag on your head!

Akim: All right! Naked pyramid time!!! Awesome!!

Glad to know you're not actually serious about the issue, since what you describe was not part of any interogation technique, and was not used on any intelligence targets either, but was instead punishment devised by the guards themselves to get back at ordinary criminals for causing a fight.

 

[King of the Americas]

In SHORT, the Bush Administration thinks

*That the Ends Justifies the Means

&

*All men are NOT created equal deserving of inalienable rights

---

We have become the enemy, just as bad if not worse than the beheaders and floggers of the world.

I want to draw a political cartoon, where Rumsfeld and Cheaney are dunking a terrorist, i.e. "water boarding"- Salem Witch Trial Style, one saying to the other. "I am sure glad we got that torture ban passed. I have really missed this dunking the witch, er 'terrorist' tradition."

We have lost our moral compass...

 

[bob_kark]

Glad to know you're not actually serious about the issue, since what you describe was not part of any interogation technique, and was not used on any intelligence targets either, but was instead punishment devised by the guards themselves to get back at ordinary criminals for causing a fight.

Oh, I'm sorry for that gross inaccuracy. Let's try again:

Greg the Torturer: I knew you'd come around Akim. I'm so glad you decided to sign. Now, put on your swim trunks and prepare for asphyxiation!

Akim: All right! Waterboarding time!!! Awesome!!

Thanks Ziggurat, I feel much better about this. Sure, its a little darker, but it adds that touch of realism.

 

[senorpogo]

Glad to know you're not actually serious about the issue, since what you describe was not part of any interogation technique, and was not used on any intelligence targets either, but was instead punishment devised by the guards themselves to get back at ordinary criminals for causing a fight.

Well, I never. I'm shocked as well, bob_kark joking around. What is the world coming to?

 

[bob_kark]

Well, I never. I'm shocked as well, bob_kark joking around. What is the world coming to?

I'm sorry I let you down...

 

[varwoche]

[pinch] Nope, maybe a nightmare but not a dream.

The government says in new court filings that those interrogation methods are now among the nation's most sensitive national security secrets and that their release -- even to the detainees' own attorneys -- "could reasonably be expected to cause extremely grave damage"

 

[senorpogo]

I want to draw a political cartoon, where Rumsfeld and Cheaney are dunking a terrorist, i.e. "water boarding"- Salem Witch Trial Style, one saying to the other. "I am sure glad we got that torture ban passed. I have really missed this dunking the witch, er 'terrorist' tradition."

I'd go with - "if a terroirst weighed the same as a duck... he's made of wood!"