LCFC - Coming soon to a cinema near you...

[Moving On]

"One of the Special Agents that detained us in DC thought my site was "interesting". "

[1] Holocaust Denial websites are interesting. Scooping my cat's litter is interesting. Russ, I read a lot of conspiracy material that is interesting. Being interesting doesn't change a kookburger theory into something credible.

[2] Do you find LC's errors forgivable because they were attacks against the government? Is it okay to intentionally leave errors in a video designed to expose a conspiracy that murdered 3,000 and is dedicated to the victims as long the government is blamed? If you have an attitude of throwing sh** at the wall and seeing what sticks, you are prosecuting instead of investigating.

[3] Were they using descriptive similes? How many of them have experience working with explosive devices and actually saw some in the WTC versus hearing a loud noise?

[5] If a building contains a huge volume of air, what happens when tons of floor come crashing down on the floor below it? Where does that air go?

[5] Russ, what is your point? Are you saying that the buildings should have tipped over if it wasn't a controlled demolition? Why do you mention that WTC 7 wasn't hit by an airplane? No one has said that it was. Are you trying to mislead people by leaving out the huge gash caused by debris from the collapsing WTC towers? What about the massive amount of diesel fuel stored in WTC 7 for generators?

[6] And? Explosions do not necessarily equal explosives.

[7] Russ, it isn't about which side you're on. It's about the truth. The 3,000 dead, their families, and the survivors deserve better than a free DVD filled with bootleg material and deliberate lies. They deserve the truth.

[8] They don't deserve crackpot theories espoused by a man that believes we didn't land on the moon, originally thought JFK was shot by his limo driver, and struggled for the longest time in trying to understand that steel doesn't have to melt for a building to collapse. They deserve the truth.

StoneWT,

1) Please don't make associations to something like that in reference to me. I believe the history of the Middle Eastern people's both Arab and Jew have been rife with horrible suffering.

The inflection when he said "interesting" did not indicate that he was linking his family to it. But with the seriousness of the situation and the implied warnings, one thing he did not do was rub my head and say "you silly and crazy little guy".

2) Final Cut will have known errors corrected.

3) Firefighters get some training in explosions and secondary explosive devices. I can't speak for NYFD or the expertise of the individuals involved. You can evaluate for yourself.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/oralhistories/explosions.html

4) I would presume universally out the weakest points. Not focal points generally preceding the collapse. We don't know because it hasn't happened before.

5) I presume non symmetrical damage would lead to a non symmetrical collapse. Get off the misleading thing. You talk about accusing without evidence. What is my possible motive for misleading and what is your evidence of my intent? I was differentiating WTC 7 since in part the collapse was attributed to aircraft damage by NIST in the towers. So far the structural damage to WTC 7 has not been attributed officially the same way to WTC 7.

6) You are correct.

7) Please tell the USG the exact same thing. The 9/11 family and victims groups would appreciate your support. AskDOJ@usdoj.gov?subject=USDOJ%20Comments

8) I would like to know everybody's personal history and beliefs in detail that post here so I can make up my mind (including traffic tickets). Start with yourself.

Thank you,
Russell

 

[Moving On]

OK, I'm with you, I was just being slow. Sorry.

What other turning points did you experience? In particular, ones that convinced you of things contrary to 9-11 Commission / NIST?

One particular turning point in the faked/planted evidence scenario was a photo from the Moussouai trial.

It was very horrible of a victim with a piece of fuselage in the background.

 

[Moving On]

Are you saying that the vast amounts of already available photographic evidence and witness statements weren't enough to make an informed decision as to Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon?

Why did you believe that the huge amount of evidence/damage proving Flight 77 hit the Pentagon was faked?

I considered the possibility certain aspects only could be planted at first when photos were very scarce of debris 3 years ago. Operation Northwoods says:

At precisely the same time that the aircraft was presumably shot down a submarine or small surface craft would disburse F-101 parts, parachute, etc., at approximately 15 to 20 miles off the Cuban coast and depart. The pilots returning to Homestead would have a true story as far as they knew. Search ships and aircraft could be dispatched and parts of aircraft found.

http://www.geocities.com/tetrahedronomega/

You have to understand that only a couple of photos of debris have actually been released by the USG. Even on the State Department site they link you to sites of photos that were leaked by rescuers. I have talked with the NTSB and asked for photos and the location of the wreckage. I suggested it would be a good idea to release that to the media to assist in dispelling the myths. No go.

You have to understand how deep into the Pentagon thing I have gone. I promise you the USG does not want to kill the no 757 myth. The only exception may be the Doubletree video coming out in the next few days. It is them who keep the conspiracy alive in dishonor of the families and victims.

Also, over three years ago when I first started looking into this the only real alternative media sources were all pro missile. That was started by a comment Rumsfeld made on September 21st 2001. By Feb/March of 2002 the Hunt the Boeing site was up and the French conspiracy book was on its way heading for 17 different languages (I think). It is all the world knew besides what the USG said which was a plane hit the building.

Russell

 

[R.Mackey]

One particular turning point in the faked/planted evidence scenario was a photo from the Moussouai trial.

It was very horrible of a victim with a piece of fuselage in the background.

So... what photo, and what about it firmed up your opinion? From your description, it doesn't sound like it conflicts with the official theory, not without knowing more.

(For what it's worth, I consider the Moussaoui trial to be highly irregular as well, and a major embarrassment for W's Justice Department, which was only able to save face because Moussaoui begged them to lock him up. However, I don't believe this proves that Sept. 11th was a premeditated act of the US Government or any portion thereof. I believe this is just another symptom of their bad policies and incompetence.)

 

[Moving On]

So... what photo, and what about it firmed up your opinion? From your description, it doesn't sound like it conflicts with the official theory, not without knowing more.

(For what it's worth, I consider the Moussaoui trial to be highly irregular as well, and a major embarrassment for W's Justice Department, which was only able to save face because Moussaoui begged them to lock him up. However, I don't believe this proves that Sept. 11th was a premeditated act of the US Government or any portion thereof. I believe this is just another symptom of their bad policies and incompetence.)

It convinced me evidence was not planted.

I misread your question.

The biggest thing that supports a conspiracy at the Pentagon is the exit hole, the suppression of the ASCE team and the falsified column damage reports.

It is complicated and certain aspects of it have been discussed on an agreement of anonymity for now. The whole Pentagon story has not been relayed to us accurately. Also cameras have been removed from local businesses and lied about by the FBI. This I documented very well.

While in the Arlington dispatch center I listened to tapes not released to the public and was shocked at some content.

It is complex.

 

[R.Mackey]

It convinced me evidence was not planted.

I misread your question.

No problem, I initially misread you above. It happens.

The biggest thing that supports a conspiracy at the Pentagon is the exit hole, the suppression of the ASCE team and the falsified column damage reports.

I won't push you for anything missing or unverifiable, like allegedly missing cameras or taped conversations. But I am curious about ASCE "suppression," falsified reports, and especially the exit hole. Those things should be neutral evidence suitable for scientific study. I also have passing familiarity with the exit hole arguments.

So, can you elaborate on those topics?

 

[Moving On]

No problem, I initially misread you above. It happens.


I won't push you for anything missing or unverifiable, like allegedly missing cameras or taped conversations. But I am curious about ASCE "suppression," falsified reports, and especially the exit hole. Those things should be neutral evidence suitable for scientific study. I also have passing familiarity with the exit hole arguments.

So, can you elaborate on those topics?

The video findings are actually pretty well documented. The resistance to discussing that topic around the area is very obvious even at the civilian locations and got me into some "situations". Here is the old LC thread I did on it.

http://www.pentagonresearch.com/lc2/Loose Change Forum - Video Findings.htm

The ASCE report is here. The engineers were frustrated on this very much and this is in part some info that requires an anonymity agreement.

http://www.pentagonresearch.com/bps.html

Most of the anonymity is required here at the exit hole. A photo that was released without USG approval and documented column damage that has was falsely reported by the FBI to the ASCE team. In visits to my site the exit hole page is the number one entry point by certain visitors as well. When I posted it originally there was an uproar aimed at me by unnamed sources.

I don't know what happened but I can promise you it was not what we were told. Many alternative scenarios do not make sense either. It is what it is.

http://www.pentagonresearch.com/exit.html

You can ask questions if you have them but I do not have all the answers.

The details of my face to face with Rumsfelds personal historian are also interesting.

 

[Moving On]

The tapes referred to were not conversations. They were recordings of conversations between police and fire and dispatch. We listened to approximately an hour of each but were only allowed to record one minute of each for the film.

The actual original 911 emergency call tapes were disappeared by the FBI. The dispatch center is very upset about that to say the least.

The FBI also intervened in a very inappropriate way in the rescue response on the tapes.

 

[Mince]

I do believe a 757 hit the Pentagon.

I never took a stand on it until after my DC visit though.

So, then, do you believe it was flight 77?

If not flight 77, which 757 do you believe hit the Pentagon?

In either case (flight 77 or not), how do you reckon the U.S. Government managed to get this plane to crash into the Pentagon?

If not flight 77, remote control?

If flight 77, ??

 

[Moving On]

So, then, do you believe it was flight 77?

If not flight 77, which 757 do you believe hit the Pentagon.

In either case (flight 77 or not), how do you reckon the U.S. Government managed to get this plane to crash into the Pentagon?

If not flight 77, remote control?

If flight 77, ??

DISCLAIMER: Personal Belief

I believe it was an aircraft configured as Flight 77 or N644AA itself.

I believe the crew and passengers were on the plane as described.

I believe the FBI is in possesion of 5 remains that are not positively identified they describe as hijackers.

I believe technology was involved in the guidence of the aircraft.

 

[R.Mackey]

The video findings are actually pretty well documented. The resistance to discussing that topic around the area is very obvious even at the civilian locations and got me into some "situations". Here is the old LC thread I did on it.

http://www.pentagonresearch.com/lc2/Loose Change Forum - Video Findings.htm

Yes, I remember that thread.

I'm getting confused again. If you're satisfied that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon, what do you think these video cameras -- if they were there, functioning, and captured optimal images -- would have seen that's so different from the official theory? According to what you believe, they would at worst show nothing, and at best provide further confirmation of the Flight 77 impact, right?

Remember, absence of evidence is not evidence.

The ASCE report is here. The engineers were frustrated on this very much and this is in part some info that requires an anonymity agreement.

http://www.pentagonresearch.com/bps.html

Thank you for that, I actually haven't read the NIST Pentagon Report but I will. (I have read the NIST WTC report, it gets discussed here much more frequently.)

I'm missing the part where ASCE members were suppressed, though. I see their access limited early due to emergency recovery efforts, and I see them being escorted later due to reconstruction and the understandably sensitive nature of the Pentagon, but I don't see anything that surprises me. Can you be more specific?

Most of the anonymity is required here at the exit hole. A photo that was released without USG approval and documented column damage that has was falsely reported by the FBI to the ASCE team. In visits to my site the exit hole page is the number one entry point by certain visitors as well. When I posted it originally there was an uproar aimed at me by unnamed sources.

I don't know what happened but I can promise you it was not what we were told. Many alternative scenarios do not make sense either. It is what it is.

http://www.pentagonresearch.com/exit.html

Speaking as an engineer, the roundness of the exit hole will be entirely a function of the wall, not the shape of the impactor. I see bricks in the image. Bricks will naturally give you a fairly convex shape. There is no evidence that it was the nose, it could have been any heavy piece of aircraft, including landing gear, engine core, etc. I would be curious to see if any large pieces (or fragments indicating large pieces) were found in or near the exit hole rubble, but on the surface this is not convincing.

And again, I don't understand what you think might have happened, given that you accept the Flight 77 impact. Can you explain? Speculation here is fine.

 

[Mince]

DISCLAIMER: Personal Belief.

Oh, I know. I'm asking for your opinion only because I'm curious.

I believe it was an aircraft configured as Flight 77 or N644AA itself.

I believe the crew and passengers were on the plane as described.

I believe the FBI is in possesion of 5 remains that are not positively identified they describe as hijackers.

I believe technology was involved in the guidence of the aircraft

So you're theorizing that the original crew initially had control of the aircraft, then someone took control remotely and then guided it into the Pentagon?


ETA: I'm having trouble reckonciling how crew and passengers could have been on the plane, without terrorists, and the plane ends up crashing into the Pentagon. I think the crew would have made distress calls if they'd lost control capability. The only scenario I could imagine is if, somehow, the conspirators rigged the plane with sedative gas before taking control.

 

[W6102LA]

Is it true that people were chanting "murderer" outside Larry Silverstien's office ?

 

[Gravy]

...I would be curious to see if any large pieces (or fragments indicating large pieces) were found in or near the exit hole rubble, but on the surface this is not convincing.

Yes. At least one aircraft tire appears in photos of the A-E drive. I don't know if it was attached to the wheel.

 

[Gravy]

Is it true that people were chanting "murderer" outside Larry Silverstien's office ?

Yes.

 

[uk_dave]

DISCLAIMER: Personal Belief

I believe it was an aircraft configured as Flight 77 or N644AA itself.

I believe the crew and passengers were on the plane as described.

I believe the FBI is in possesion of 5 remains that are not positively identified they describe as hijackers.

I believe technology was involved in the guidence of the aircraft.

So if there are remains of bodies which cannot be positively identified as belonging to passengers or crew, there must have been others on the plane.

So, why do we need remote piloting of the aircraft?

I noticed from a brief visit to your website that you comment on there being no mayday sent from the plane, which you consider strange if it had been hijacked. So why is it more understandable if the plane was remote piloted?

If there were no hijackers (discounting the remains which cannot be identified) then what would have stopped the pilot and crew using the airphones to tell someone they had lost control of the plane (assuming that the remote piloting of the plane also gave the conspirators control over the radio)?

If there were 5 other people on board the plane, are we then to believe that these people knew the plane was going to be remotely flown into the pentagon and that they themselves would be killed? If so, what would their motive have been? Seems unlikely they would have been muslim extremists with an abiding hatred of the US in that case, doesn't it?

Do you REALLY believe that the CT as presented by Avery is going to stand up to media and expert scrutiny if it has a theatrical release? Seriously?

Sometimes it's a good idea to just step away from a project such as this and view it dispassionately. Try to put yourself in the shoes of someone who is going to be asking some very difficult questions of you and the LC boys.

 

[W6102LA]

Russell

Care to hazard a guess as to why people were chanting "murderer" outside Larry Silverstien's office ?

 

[Moving On]

Yes, I remember that thread.

1) I'm getting confused again. If you're satisfied that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon, what do you think these video cameras -- if they were there, functioning, and captured optimal images -- would have seen that's so different from the official theory? According to what you believe, they would at worst show nothing, and at best provide further confirmation of the Flight 77 impact, right?

Remember, absence of evidence is not evidence.


2) Thank you for that, I actually haven't read the NIST Pentagon Report but I will. (I have read the NIST WTC report, it gets discussed here much more frequently.)

I'm missing the part where ASCE members were suppressed, though. I see their access limited early due to emergency recovery efforts, and I see them being escorted later due to reconstruction and the understandably sensitive nature of the Pentagon, but I don't see anything that surprises me. Can you be more specific?


3) Speaking as an engineer, the roundness of the exit hole will be entirely a function of the wall, not the shape of the impactor. I see bricks in the image. Bricks will naturally give you a fairly convex shape. There is no evidence that it was the nose, it could have been any heavy piece of aircraft, including landing gear, engine core, etc. I would be curious to see if any large pieces (or fragments indicating large pieces) were found in or near the exit hole rubble, but on the surface this is not convincing.

And again, I don't understand what you think might have happened, given that you accept the Flight 77 impact. Can you explain? Speculation here is fine.

1) I don't know. Video has been suppressed. It makes no sense to me either. The video that has been released has been reduced and compressed to the point of uselessness.

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/ArticlePentagon23May2006.html

I had a face to face with Rumsfeld's personal historian. She (believe it or not) asked me for photos and video I have. I asked her why she can't get it through her boss. She stared at me and turned red. She was at the meeting we had with the Arlington dispatch center scrapping for tidbits just as we were.

I made her a deal. I told her I would give her everything I have and save her two years on her project. I asked in return for one uncompressed frame from the original analogue video with the aircraft in it. She gave me her information and I gave her my name, address and phone and asked her to present my offer to Mr. Rumsfeld.

There was no further communication and all of my attempts to follow up on the situation have gone unanswered. The next day when Special Agents ran my name they indicated that "this all seems to come back to me" and one of them said my website was "interesting" (not like he enjoyed it).

2) As I said part of this requires anonymity. The key is that with no safety issues long after the scene was secure they were not allowed back at the exit hole.

http://www.pentagonresearch.com/105.html

Later a photo was released unofficially that contradicted the FBI report of damage given to the ASCE in light of their not being allowed back there.

http://www.pentagonresearch.com/094.html

Here is one quote from the engineers themselves from the report. They seeded it with subtle comments to indicate their dissatisfaction of what they were allowed to investigate. The scene was actually safe long before they were allowed access.

The teams attempted to inspect and photograph all columns with significant visible damage and most of the beams and floor bays with significant visible damage. To the extent possible, it was noted whether physical loads or the effects of fire caused the observed damage. The BPS team also noted the performance of windows and exterior wall reinforcements that had been installed to enhance blast resistance in Wedge 1 prior to the attack. However the BPS team inspections were not comprehensive, and they did not address fire-related material degradation." (page 24)

http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build03/PDF/b03017.pdf

3) I talked with many people who were in and out of that hole. I talked with some that were the first allowed in on the 12th for official duties. There was no significantly sized aircraft debris in the A/E Drive.

TERRY MITCHELL (Chief, Audiovisual Division, Office of ASD PA): "It's more to the right of where we were at. This is the -- this is in a renovated section on the opposite side, if you were facing the opposite side. This is a hole in -- there was a punch-out. They suspect that this was where a part of the aircraft came through this hole, although I didn't see any evidence of the aircraft down there."
(News Briefing The Pentagon, Arlington, Virginia September 15, 2001, 11:00 A.M. EDT)

This is in agreement with the private conversations I have had.

3) You would have to read the exit hole page in detail. Don't skip over it and then ask questions please. I am aware of a couple of errors, one regarding the "rebar" I mentioned that is not actually rebar. My belief about the exit hole does not immediately make sense in light of a plane also hitting the building.

 

[boloboffin]

NIST isn't studying the Pentagon - the ASCE report linked above is the final word on that building, AFAIK.

 

[Moving On]

Oh, I know. I'm asking for your opinion only because I'm curious.





So you're theorizing that the original crew initially had control of the aircraft, then someone took control remotely and then guided it into the Pentagon?


ETA: I'm having trouble reckonciling how crew and passengers could have been on the plane, without terrorists, and the plane ends up crashing into the Pentagon. I think the crew would have made distress calls if they'd lost control capability. The only scenario I could imagine is if, somehow, the conspirators rigged the plane with sedative gas before taking control.

I would also think a very dedicated and experienced military pilot that was an anti-terrorism strategist and Naval Intelligence reserve officer that was a liaison to the Pentagon and worked in the offices that were impacted until 1996 as well as his former co-workers, would have either used one of his methods of activating the mic to announce a super quick MAYDAY, activated the hijack transponder code, or taken "evasive" action during the first seconds of the incident. His family has even expressed surprise that he was overtaken.

I hate to say it but gas is a possibility, but even for me is a little too "mission impossiblish".