Abortion scandal in Spain

DanishDynamite said:
Personally, I don't think that is the bigger question. The bigger question is how this procedure, clearly against Spanish law, could exist for years in a large, well-staffed clinic in Spain.
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Katana said:
You're right. That is the first element of this story that should be addressed.
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I can't believe that you two would ask for an opinion regarding what has allowed this practice to continue, despite laws to the contrary.

That has to be the most deplorable declaration of defeat I have ever heard of, when it comes to freedom of speech, and freedom of the press.

I pity you, and the country you each live in.
 
NoZed Avenger said:
I can't believe that you two would ask for an opinion regarding what has allowed this practice to continue, despite laws to the contrary.

That has to be the most deplorable declaration of defeat I have ever heard of, when it comes to freedom of speech, and freedom of the press.

I pity you, and the country you each live in.
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No sure what your problem is, my friend. Do you disagree that this is a scandal? Or that the actions done by these doctors is reprehensible?

Kindly clarify.
 
Luke T. said:
I haven't heard anything in the major press. I have no idea if the fundamentalist news grapevine has reported on it. It's possible. The only large news organization I know of in the US Christian media is Pat Robertson's, and I don't listen to that. And about the only time anything Pat Robertson reports makes it into the major media is when he says something outrageous.

ETA: He would have to say something like, "Spain is going to get hit by a meteor for allowing late term abortions." :)
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Ok. Thanks for the update, Luke. Just thought this digrace might have made its way to the US.
 
NoZed Avenger said:
I can't believe that you two would ask for an opinion regarding what has allowed this practice to continue, despite laws to the contrary.

That has to be the most deplorable declaration of defeat I have ever heard of, when it comes to freedom of speech, and freedom of the press.

I pity you, and the country you each live in.
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Evidence?
 
Luke T. said:
I am looking in my crystal ball and seeing a sudden influx of late-term pregnant women visiting Spain.
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From where?

Certainly not the U.S. There is no shortage of facilities here who will cheerfully perform the procedure. For example:

At Women's Health Care Services, we specialize in "late" abortion care. We are able to perform elective abortions to the time in the pregnancy when the fetus is viable.......
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DanishDynamite said:
Originally Posted by Huntster
From where?

Certainly not the U.S. There is no shortage of facilities here who will cheerfully perform the procedure. For example:
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Do these clinics perform 8-month abortions cheerfully in accordance with US Law?
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Quite cheerfully, like the website advertises.

And, that goes beyond 8 months:

At Women's Health Care Services, we specialize in "late" abortion care. We are able to perform elective abortions to the time in the pregnancy when the fetus is viable. Viability is not a set point in time. Viability is determined by the attending physician and is based on sonogram results, physical examination and last menstrual period date (if known)......
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Yup. All "elective", too.
 
DanishDynamite said:
No sure what your problem is, my friend. Do you disagree that this is a scandal? Or that the actions done by these doctors is reprehensible?

Kindly clarify.
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Scroll back up to see where I lifted my language and attitude.

You don't have to take Grammy's word for it.
 
This is insane.

First off - if a woman is in the third trimester of pregnancy, it isn't abortion, it's murder, pure and simple. Thank Bob, it is here anyway. Obviously states in USA differ, but I had a discussion a few weeks back with Amateur Scientist about a guy who killed an 8-month foetus in a DUI crash and copped several years in jail for it, in Texas.

This is clearly illegal in Spain and I don't know what the penalties would be, but here, it would be life, same as if the baby were alive. I'd have to say, the thing which disturbs me the most about the whole thing is the reference to it as "abortion". Right, wrong, agree or disagree with the concept of abortion, it is clearly something which is done when a foetus is NOT viable - i.e. it cannot live, even with medical intervention.

I must confess to being amazed that it would be legally available in USA in any state. I'm not sure that the site Huntster has linked to would be comfortable with having to kill the foetus prior to the "abortion". Great grist to the mill of anti-abortionists, anyway.
 
On the other hand...

In the US, it is a growing problem that Christian apothecaries that are members of "Pharmacists for Life" refuse to sell contraceptive pills and emergency contraception kits.

They feel it is murder or accessory to murder to use contraception.

In several cases, women have been rejected at pharmacies, have had their prescriptions torn into pieces or have been verbally attacked by an apothecary, preaching Christian messages of abstinence and the right to life.

This information comes from the womens lib organization Naral Pro-Choice.
Source (in Danish)
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Further:

Mississippi, Arkansas, Georgia and South Dakota allows all health staff to refuse to do any kind of service that is against their religious beliefs.

18 additional states are currently in the process of making similar laws.

South Dakota, North Caroline and Louisiana has banned basically all forms of abortion, even in cases where the women have been subjected to incest and rape.

In a number of hospitals in the US, there is a law that means that the doctor can refuse to offer rape victims emergency contraception kits.

Congress has voted 145 times over the past 10 years in favor of laws that restrict women's access to contraception and abortion.

Only in Washington and 6 other states is it part of the permanent legislation that women have the right to abortion.

Denmark has had free abortion since 1973 and free access to over-the-counter emergency contraception kits since 2001.
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Oh I see CFL, Spain does abortion in the 32 week period on Danish women so it's the fault of US laws and pharmacies.

Your logic is amazing, please tell us more.
 
Huntster said:
Quite cheerfully, like the website advertises.

And, that goes beyond 8 months:



Yup. All "elective", too.
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That's interesting because that would be against the law.

From Kansas laws pertaining to abortions, the practice of medicine, and pregnant minors:

65-6703
Chapter 65.--PUBLIC HEALTH
Article 67.--ABORTION

65-6703. Abortion prohibited when fetus viable, exceptions; determination of age of fetus; determination of viability; reports; retention of medical records; viable, defined; criminal penalties.
(a) No person shall perform or induce an abortion when the fetus is viable unless such person is a physician and has a documented referral from another physician not legally or financially affiliated with the physician performing or inducing the abortion and both physicians determine that:
(1) The abortion is necessary to preserve the life of the pregnant woman; or
(2) a continuation of the pregnancy will cause a substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function of the pregnant woman.
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How they define "viable":
(e) As used in this section, "viable" means that stage of fetal development when it is the physician's judgment according to accepted obstetrical or neonatal standards of care and practice applied by physicians in the same or similar circumstances that there is a reasonable probability that the life of the child can be continued indefinitely outside the mother's womb with natural or artificial life-supportive measures.
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Notice that the clinic's website says:
Kansas law allows for post-viability abortion procedures when continuing the pregnancy is detrimental to the pregnant woman's health. Each person's circumstances are reviewed on a case-by-base basis. Please call so that we can discuss admission criteria with you.
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Whether they stretch the definition of health to include mental health (i.e., distress if she cannot have an abortion being sufficient) is another question, but the law seems clear in specifying only a threat to the mother's life or a situation in which there is a risk of "substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function" would justify a post-viability abortion. That doesn't sound like it would include mental health, but I'm no lawyer. Bottom line is that Kansas does not permit these procedures to be performed on a purely elective basis, and the clinic seems to recognize that on its website.
 
Grammatron said:
Oh I see CFL, Spain does abortion in the 32 week period on Danish women so it's the fault of US laws and pharmacies.

Your logic is amazing, please tell us more.
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I'm more impressed with your logic. How did you get from me posting about anti-abortion in the US to me blaming the US for what happens to Danish women in Spain?

Why do you expect an opinion from a journalist reporting on a news event?
 
Grammatron said:
By assuming this would be huge news in US.
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Most weeks it might well be, but there's a big election in the US next week that's largely dominating things. Not a presidential election (those are only in years divisible by 4) but all of the House of Representatives (435) and 1/3 the Senate (33 or 34) are up.
 
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