• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Annoying creationists

Status
Not open for further replies.
Aww, I thought this was going to be on ways to ignore them and I was going to suggest the archaeological record! Damn it!
 
Hi Paul, can you cater to my laziness and briefly describe the 16 binding site arguement they are making?

Are they considering mutations in transcription factors? If you consider these proteins to be sources of mutation, HUGE changes in phenotype can be expected. So, I don't see how punctuated rapid evolution is not explainable at a genetic level.
 
That entire thread is a discussion of the simulation of the evolution of genetic binding sites by the Ev program, described here:

http://www.lecb.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/paper/ev/

Kleinman is attempting to convince us that Ev demonstrates that there was not enough time for binding sites to develop. Actually, his thesis is that there was not enough time for macroevolution to occur. What that has to do with genetic binding sites I cannot imagine. He claims that various results that we got from running experiments with Ev support his thesis. He throws around numbers like 4^1000.

That's all well and good. He can discuss this if he wants. But I really get annoyed when he starts misrepresenting what I said.

~~ Paul
 
Thanks Paul.
not knowing the generational life span of the first organisms to develop, this is a pretty weak argument. Presumably, a lot of the initial life forming molecules were a series of microenvironment biochemical reactions. In these settings, there would be a ton of binding site type generational experiments that could have occured with unknown kinetics.

We don't know if life started as prions that assembled into viruses that started to incorporate dna... In such a series, DNA would only be selected if it possessed a binding. As such, there wouldn't be a random generation of binding sites.


Oh well. I'll give him this much, It is interesting to think how fast life did progress in relation to the span of the earth.
 
Aww, I thought this was going to be on ways to ignore them and I was going to suggest the archaeological record! Damn it!
I also hoped it was about ways to annoy creationists. I'll sign up for that, I thought. No such luck.

Creationists are impenetrable, much like Trotskyists and ... lets take a very long list as read.

eta : Catholic apologists are high on that list. I shouldn't let them off without a mention.
 
Last edited:
not knowing the generational life span of the first organisms to develop, this is a pretty weak argument. Presumably, a lot of the initial life forming molecules were a series of microenvironment biochemical reactions. In these settings, there would be a ton of binding site type generational experiments that could have occured with unknown kinetics.
This is something creationists/IDists miss. They start from the unlikelihood of life as it is, ignoring the astronomical number of equally unlikely systems that didn't make it but might have. At the base of their thinking, IMO, is the assumption that life was meant to be as it's turned out, specifically with humans as its crowning achievement. From that initial assumption of meaning ID necessarily derives.

We don't know if life started as prions that assembled into viruses that started to incorporate dna... In such a series, DNA would only be selected if it possessed a binding. As such, there wouldn't be a random generation of binding sites.
Viruses are actually very advanced parasites, they need cellular mechanisms to expolit. They're DNA renegades.

The prion thing is more apt. Prions have a catalytic effect which reproduces the prion. Pre-cellular proto-life (or whatever) must have had the same kind of catalytic effect, one that acted to reproduce the original, randomly-generated catalyst. Not necessarily by one step; the catalyst could produce a different catalyst which in turn produced the original, or produced yet another catalyst which produced the original ... The circular chain can get indefinitely long in theory, although there are obvious practical constraints. The players need to be kept in reasonably close proximity, for instance. In life as we know it the cell does that.

We may never know exactly how it happened, but I like Black Smokers as a good bet for the location. They're hugely fractal, have vast numbers of tiny niches that could confine sets of quite complex molecules, the walls of the niches could themselves have a catalytic effect, they sit in the middle of a very steep energy gradient (life is all about the energy gradient) and there all sorts of energy-rich chemical building-blocks streaming through that could eddy into the niches. The complex molecules could seep out and congregate again in other niches. If the reproduction was inexact - which it surely would be - evolution by natural selection kicks in. Before you know it we've got income tax and rice-pudding.

It could be happening today. Potential chemical ancestors of life might be popping up every day, every hour. What our chemical ancestors didn't have was predation by established life-forms. Newbies are toast these days.

Oh well. I'll give him this much, It is interesting to think how fast life did progress in relation to the span of the earth.
It is indeed. To me it speaks of the likelihood - not to say inevitabliity - of life emerging where it can, rather than the IDers' unlikliehood crutch.
 
I posted the Top Ten list from the latest Commentary on a board where people brought up a new thread every few hours, it seemed. Totally killed all discussion of it.
 
Why? Change is good for you.

~~ Paul

One moment you've "Alive" status, the next it's changed to "Dead", no obvious benefit there. One day your best girl adores you, the next she's run off with a lawyer. Not all change is good, and I happen to be a rather conservative chap. I'm even nostalgic for the Cold War (as least you knew where you stood in those days, it's been bloody mayhem ever since).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom