I think that the way the nation of Israel was created was wrong. Wrong reasons and wrong place. I don't share the motiviations that make Jews believe that they have a divine right to posses that land.
Illegal Israeli Settlements Rapidly Growing.
- Thread starter a_unique_person
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I think that the way the nation of Israel was created was wrong. Wrong reasons and wrong place. I don't share the motiviations that make Jews believe that they have a divine right to posses that land.
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
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Wonderful.
Borders are most typically drawn with blood and iron, or the threat of it. So it is with Israel's borders. Since 1948, Israel's blood and iron have held sway.
By what right does Mexico possess its land? Paraguay? Cuba?
DR
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
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Man, I'd like to learn how to do that with my tax bill.
Any pointers?
DR
I can show you some websites.
You can also nulify your mortgage too. Boy the banks hate that!
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
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Again you're speaking from historical inaccuracy. Zionism was a secular movement, not a religious one. In part it was motivated by anti-Semitism and a need for Jewish people to have a place where their safety would not depend on the mercy of non-Jews, and in part the movement was motivated by creating a place where Jewish culture could flourish.
Mycroft
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It's precisely because of propaganda pieces like this that I've come to my own very pro-Israel point of view. There was a time when I knew very little of the topic and as I became more educated, I kept noticing more lies, half-truths, omissions and distortions coming overwhelmingly from only one side of the conflict.
There are certainly pro-Israeli sources that are willing to stretch the truth some, but they are the exception rather than the rule. On the pro-Palestinian side the willingness to lie is virtually universal.
Darth Rotor
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You might have stopped right there.
You just shot your objectivity in the foot, with a blunderbus.
Someone will now ask for evidence to back up your generalization.
DR
Mycroft
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You might have stopped right there.
You just shot your in the foot, with a blunderbus.
Someone will now ask for evidence to back up your generalization.
DR
That's fine. If someone wants to challenge my statement, I'll ask them to find a pro-Palestinian source that doesn't depend on half-truths, omissions and deception. Then if they think they find one, I’ll just go through and point out some half-truths, omissions, and deceptions.
I’ve been doing this for a while now.
The reply from those who brought up the "objective" Palestinian web site exposed as being the usual collection of lies being usually:
(a) "There are two sides to every story" (oh really? So, how about teaching creationism in biology class?)
(b) "The jews distort too!" (which, even if true, is merely the tu quoque fallacy--not to mention the fact that while perhaps no absolutely objective site exists, it is the degree of distortion that is the point)
(c) "zionist! racist! Islamophobe!" (etc.)
Darth Rotor
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Please delete this post, I got jumped to the developmental forum, and had a heck of a time getting out.
Now free of the red and brown world.
DR
Mycroft
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My prediction:
Q-source will not reply. He's not a "true believer", he's just some person who has been exposed to the Palestinian side of the argument and feels vaguely offended that someone who has looked deeper into the issues has formed a strong opinion the other way. He's one of those that think "reasonable" is always "middle ground between the two sides" and doesn't easily comprehend that while there may well be (at least) two sides to every issue, the different sides are not always equally true.
The other usual suspects who are true believers will not reply. By this time they are fully aware that you, I, Z-N, Webfusion or others are fully capable of exposing the half-truths, omissions and deceptions of any given source they might bring to the table.
Darth Rotor
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webfusion
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All of Zenith-Nadir's posts are still available for viewing in various threads, and in general, he has offered rebuttals and solid information over and over, so it shouldn't be hard to search the Forums and link to his archived posts when needed. Many of Z-N's replies go over the same ground time and again ---- there is never a shortage of myths and falsehoods offered here and in other forums, and I know for sure that the reason he left in a huff was because he is exhausted from making ongoing references to palestinian duplicity and palestinian intransigence and palestinian violence, all the while being replied-to thusly:
"It's Israel's fault"
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2028893&postcount=3
The facts speak for themselves:
It is the palestinian's fault, for lacking leadership willing to negotiate in good faith.
This thread is about Israeli settlements.
Those settlements are on disputed lands (legal status disputed).
The palestinians maintain that all of Israel is 'in dispute' and claim all of palestine as theirs, so it makes not one whit of difference if the Israelis build in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem or Alfe Menashe or Havat Maon. Not one centimeter of Israel is an acceptable place for jews, according to the palestinians' leaders.
That is the crux of the issue.
That is what Z-N has shown over and over.
He has shown it well enough, and if he wishes to remain absent from these discussions at this point onwards, his words and posts still stand.
"It's Israel's fault"
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2028893&postcount=3
The facts speak for themselves:
It is the palestinian's fault, for lacking leadership willing to negotiate in good faith.
This thread is about Israeli settlements.
Those settlements are on disputed lands (legal status disputed).
The palestinians maintain that all of Israel is 'in dispute' and claim all of palestine as theirs, so it makes not one whit of difference if the Israelis build in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem or Alfe Menashe or Havat Maon. Not one centimeter of Israel is an acceptable place for jews, according to the palestinians' leaders.
That is the crux of the issue.
That is what Z-N has shown over and over.
He has shown it well enough, and if he wishes to remain absent from these discussions at this point onwards, his words and posts still stand.
WTF?
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
It is wrong from it's initial claim on the meaning of the UN resolution. The resolution clearly states that land claimed by war cannot be held, it makes no qualifications.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
So says God, as usual, you know what people think and why. If anyone dares to debate you on the issue in depth, it can only be because they are anti-semites who hate Jews. I won't debate you anymore Mycroft, your sense of self importance and rightousness, combined with the willingness to harrass, stalk and slander forum members, makes any debate a complete waste of time.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
See, that is the basic problem I have. Whatever the reasons for getting to this point, I believe it is in everyones best interests to have stable, viable and safe states for the Palestinians and Israelis. I don't believe all the current trouble is the fault of Israel, but it is also certainly not the case that it is all the Palestinians fault, either.
steverino
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AUP: That's 2 Jews down, and several more to go. You protest too much. Why not lay off America and Israel for a while and criticize Australia, like that crazy imam in Sydney who equates women with meat.
webfusion
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All? Where did you see the word "all" appear in my post?
You completely misquoted me, and deviated from the intent of my statement with a huge strawman of your own creation.
The palestinans have only themselves to blame for backing leadership which has completely failed to negotiate terms that would be favorable to them. Idiots.
webfusion
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The resolution clearly states that land claimed by war cannot be held, it makes no qualifications.
Screw that. If you wage war against me, and I win --- I keep whatever territory my armies were victorious over. That is the way of the world. Otherwise, there is no negative for you to wage war over and over, each time regaining the high ground through a "UN resolution" forcing me to withdraw, until the time comes when you win.
Nope, I think that's absurd.
You lose, I get to declare my terms, not the other way around.
Screw that. If you wage war against me, and I win --- I keep whatever territory my armies were victorious over. That is the way of the world. Otherwise, there is no negative for you to wage war over and over, each time regaining the high ground through a "UN resolution" forcing me to withdraw, until the time comes when you win.
Nope, I think that's absurd.
You lose, I get to declare my terms, not the other way around.