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What We Saw - Bob & Bri (Not what we heard)

Point taken Russell.



What new information have you discovered?

Pardalis,

Well most of it regarding any detail on the towers is new to me.

But one thing now is that there is documentation of the sounds preceding the collapse in the Siegel video requiring another explanation. I know you believed that but the What We Saw video confirms it.

As I said, I am here to learn about WTC now.

I have been myopic about the Pentagon. Already in a short time I have found out a lot of what I believed has already been debunked.

Russell
 
I know there was at least one powerful explosion at WTC7 prior to the collapse. I listened to two different videos of it and will look at that later.
How do you know it was an explosion, and how do you know it was from WTC 7?
 
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But one thing now is that there is documentation of the sounds preceding the collapse in the Siegel video requiring another explanation. I know you believed that but the What We Saw video confirms it.

Really? I must have missed that.

What "documentation"?

As I said, I am here to learn about WTC now.

Quite frankly, I think you're here to validate your own theory.
 
Gravy,

I respect what you do.

It would be easier if you quit using words like "coward" and "ignorant" in reference to me.

I too have spent much time alone at this computer and written many articles etc. to debunk the myths surrounding the Pentagon irregardless of my overall beliefs about 9/11.

I don't recall a specific incident where I said you were personally wrong. Perhaps I have but I don't recall it.

I would rate your knowledge of the WTC as very far superior to my own. Just reality. I imagine there might be a couple of things I know about the Pentagon that you are not aware of too.

I am slowly becoming aware of your work bit by bit. I went out of my range in the last thread by discussing the WTC. Now I want to learn more to see what of my beliefs still stand. I am not a person who responds to "it is so". I need to figure it out for myself.

The "skeptic guru" comment was unnecessary and I apologize. I know you believe what you do with your heart as do I.

I am not a right or wrong person usually. Sometimes ego creeps in and I succumb. I am not trying to prove YOU wrong. I may challenge certain ideas but if the facts fall in any court, I will align myself with them. I don't find your methods poor at all. I find your work thorough and well thought out.

Some CTists hate you and some fear you. I am just one that respects and learns. Do you think I believe I am intentionally misleading anybody? Do you think I want my beliefs aligned with something that is not real?

Since we are diametrically opposed, one of us is in fact promoting something that is generally false. I don't want it to be me as I am sure you don't want it to be you.

So instead of making you a demon I am trying to find out if it is me that is mostly falling on the false side of things.

Russell
 
Really? I must have missed that.

What "documentation"?



Quite frankly, I think you're here to validate your own theory.

Pardalis,

Please read this post.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2038937&postcount=122

I spent at least 8 hours understanding why I now believe there were no explosions separate from the sounds of the collapse at the North Tower for at least 18 seconds prior.

OK? Now when I talk with people that will be explained and it will contribute to the truth.

Russell
 
Russell,

The Naudet documentary can probably be purchased at most DVD stores. Alternatively, it is available at many places online (I downloaded it because it is not currently available in NZ).

I expect you will find their footage from the South Tower collapse relatively useful - it is taken from inside the WTC1 lobby. It is important to take note of more than just the sounds on the tape, as well. Take not of the attitudes of the firemen. Do they act like they are hearing explosions? Or that they might have earlier? Or is there a sense of bewilderment in their eyes as they first hear the increasing roar as WTC2 crashes to the ground?

I have been an actor, and have worked around actors, my entire life. The look on Chief Pfeifer's face in that moment is not acting. It is genuine.

Bear in mind he send his brother up into WTC1 that day. His brother died.

(I don't mean to imply you think FDNY were in on it, but I am anticipating that as the only realistic come-back to my "notice reaction of firemen" claim)

-Gumboot
 
Gravy,

I respect what you do.

It would be easier if you quit using words like "coward" and "ignorant" in reference to me.

I too have spent much time alone at this computer and written many articles etc. to debunk the myths surrounding the Pentagon irregardless of my overall beliefs about 9/11.

I don't recall a specific incident where I said you were personally wrong. Perhaps I have but I don't recall it.

I would rate your knowledge of the WTC as very far superior to my own. Just reality. I imagine there might be a couple of things I know about the Pentagon that you are not aware of too.

I am slowly becoming aware of your work bit by bit. I went out of my range in the last thread by discussing the WTC. Now I want to learn more to see what of my beliefs still stand. I am not a person who responds to "it is so". I need to figure it out for myself.

The "skeptic guru" comment was unnecessary and I apologize. I know you believe what you do with your heart as do I.

I am not a right or wrong person usually. Sometimes ego creeps in and I succumb. I am not trying to prove YOU wrong. I may challenge certain ideas but if the facts fall in any court, I will align myself with them. I don't find your methods poor at all. I find your work thorough and well thought out.

Some CTists hate you and some fear you. I am just one that respects and learns. Do you think I believe I am intentionally misleading anybody? Do you think I want my beliefs aligned with something that is not real?

Since we are diametrically opposed, one of us is in fact promoting something that is generally false. I don't want it to be me as I am sure you don't want it to be you.

So instead of making you a demon I am trying to find out if it is me that is mostly falling on the false side of things.

Russell
Thank you, Russell. That was well said. I apologize for my coward remark, and I'll try to avoid these derails in the future.
 
Russell,

The Naudet documentary can probably be purchased at most DVD stores. Alternatively, it is available at many places online (I downloaded it because it is not currently available in NZ).

I expect you will find their footage from the South Tower collapse relatively useful - it is taken from inside the WTC1 lobby. It is important to take note of more than just the sounds on the tape, as well. Take not of the attitudes of the firemen. Do they act like they are hearing explosions? Or that they might have earlier? Or is there a sense of bewilderment in their eyes as they first hear the increasing roar as WTC2 crashes to the ground?

I have been an actor, and have worked around actors, my entire life. The look on Chief Pfeifer's face in that moment is not acting. It is genuine.

Bear in mind he send his brother up into WTC1 that day. His brother died.

(I don't mean to imply you think FDNY were in on it, but I am anticipating that as the only realistic come-back to my "notice reaction of firemen" claim)

-Gumboot

Firefighter actors are not an option for me.
 
As an aside, could you please remind me, Russell, did you argue earlier that it was somehow odd that the firefighters pulled people away from WTC7 before it collapsed? I am just asking because I don't really want to have to go back and read the last several hundred posts and I don't recall your position on that particular issue.

LashL,

I wouldn't think it odd at all that firefighters would have a normal collapse or debris zone around any high rise fire. Let alone WTC7.

Given the events of the day I would not think it odd to have a high degree of concern for building collapse especially in light of the physical damage to the building.

The things I do want to inquire about remain, but I want to start a specific Q&A thread on that when I have the time to dedicate to it.

I will find a way to get the Naudet footage - thank you though!

Russell
 
How do you know it was an explosion, and how do you know it was from WTC 7?

Gravy,

I will get back to you on this. I don't have access to the clips right now. Server down.

Russell
 
Has anybody looked into this? Can somebody contact them and get the continuous footage prior to and up through the collapse?

It certainly seems like a good opportunity to put the sound of explosions issue to rest.

Let me know what you find!

The final tower falling took 30 seconds to finish, part of the core was standing by itself up to 70 stories or more. 19:40 to 20:10

Wallboard makes a lot of dust, when we tore up our house the wall board messes up everything, they had to close their window at 20:01.

You could hear the collapse. If there had been RDX and dynamite you would have heard it, it travels for miles and is very distinctive. But you can hear the rumble, which i have not heard on home videos of other CD projects from a distance, but did hear the reports from the RDX.

What a mess. good find on the video
 
I spent at least 8 hours understanding why I now believe there were no explosions separate from the sounds of the collapse at the North Tower for at least 18 seconds prior.

What makes you think there would be for the other tower?

First observation:

The flashes in the Bob & Bri video at 7:53 are simply falling glass. If you watch carefully it is two flashes from the same piece falling. To confirm this, go to the 7:56 area to see it continue its fall in between the bands. Also watch closely around the 7:44 area and you can see another one there above the top band briefly. I don't know what the "pop" is but it is not related to the glass in my opinion.

So? What is your expertise in this field? These pop sounds could be just inherent to the recording itself, you can't expect perfect quality of sound and image from a home video camera.

Second Observation:

In the What We Saw video after the last dissolve ends at 19:22 they shoot continuous footage from 19:23 to 19:41 when the video is cut. It is at the 19:30-32 second mark in this video we should hear the first explosion that the Siegel video associates with the North tower collapse. It is not there.

So?

Wind is a possibility since I found this recording where somebody was talking about the collapse of WTC7 meaning that obviously all collapses were over. In the background at about 2:08 into it you hear most likely wind that sounds similar to Siegel's "explosion sounds" prior to the North tower collapse.

I have no idea what you are talking about here.


Why are you posting this video?

There is no live sound.


These videos are of extremely low quality, some I would even say are of abysmal quality. I really don't know what you expect to find in these web based, compressed bits of data.

If you're really trying to investigate this properly, why don't you try and find the source material, the original tapes?
 
What makes you think there would be for the other tower?



So? What is your expertise in this field? These pop sounds could be just inherent to the recording itself, you can't expect perfect quality of sound and image from a home video camera.



So?



I have no idea what you are talking about here.



Why are you posting this video?

There is no live sound.



These videos are of extremely low quality, some I would even say are of abysmal quality. I really don't know what you expect to find in these web based, compressed bits of data.

If you're really trying to investigate this properly, why don't you try and find the source material, the original tapes?

Pardalis,

Thank you for your time. But it seems you missed what I said. The bottom line is that I now have my own personal conclusion as to what I believe and why.

Russell
 
LashL,

I wouldn't think it odd at all that firefighters would have a normal collapse or debris zone around any high rise fire. Let alone WTC7.

Given the events of the day I would not think it odd to have a high degree of concern for building collapse especially in light of the physical damage to the building.

Thanks. That's what I was hoping your position was, but, like I said, I really didn't want to go back through hundreds of posts on other threads to ascertain your position on the point, so I appreciate your response here.

The things I do want to inquire about remain, but I want to start a specific Q&A thread on that when I have the time to dedicate to it.

Fair enough.

I will find a way to get the Naudet footage - thank you though!

You're welcome. (As an aside, be sure to get the updated version that was aired on/around the 5th anniversary last month as well as the original.)
 
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LashL,

I'm glad you're pullin' for me!

Russell

Oh, you just HAD to use a form of the word "pull" there, didn't you? ;)

...
...
...
insert tiny letter code here (pretend, okay?)

Better me and other skeptics than CTers. By CTer interpretation of the word and the timing, you'd be dead by now.

...
...
...
...
...

(insert more tiny letter code here and don tinfoil hat)

(Note to self: call FDNY and Larry Silverstein in the morning and make sure they get the memo NOT to wire up and implode Russell; repeat: the mission has been cancelled.)

,,,
,,,
,,,

Whew!

All is well. It is now safe to remove the tinfoil hat and rejoin the intelligent segment of society.


/derail
 
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LashL,

I got a message via my dental fillings you had posted.

One of the most important things in firefighting is that once you're inside you need people "pulling" or feeding hose to you once it gets too heavy for you and your back up to advance.

That was a good conspiracy though.

Russell
 
Russell,

I was at the WTC on 9/11.

I witnessed the entire chain of events.

I wrote a summary of what I saw for Gravy's WTC7 paper. I'll post it here (its a little long though):

I saw both planes hit. I would commute from NJ. Sometimes I'd take the PATH train from Hoboken, on nice days I'd take the ferry. 9/11 was a beautiful morning, and I took the ferry. I got off the ferry at the World financial center and began walking to my office on 45 Broadway. To do this, you have to walk DIRECTLY toward WTC1 As I was walking I heard a jets roar. I looked up. Now [feel free to delete this if it will make CT’ers take it out of context] I expected it to me some sort of military plane since every now and then military jets do fly down the Hudson river. IT WAS NOT. I saw a huge jetliner fly over me and SLAM IN TO THE TOWER!!! I had a PERFECT vantage point. Even then, I couldn’t actually process what I had seen. I kept thinking it couldn’t have been an American Airlines plane, sure that’s what I saw, but it just couldn’t have been. It had to be something else.

I didn't know what to do. Should I get back on the ferry and go home or should I go to my office? I went to my office. I found a group of co-workers standing behind our building on Greenwich and Rector street looking at the burning building, and we started talking about what happened. Some saw the crash, and some just saw the fire. The ones that didn't see the crash didn't believe me and those of us that did see it that it was a jetliner. They assumed, as I did before I saw the plane, that it was a private or military plane. They couldn't imagine it was a jetliner. Of course, they didn't actually see what I and the others did.

We all thought it had to be an accident. I was talking about how the buildings are designed to survive a hit like this and how it would be OK.

Smoke was pouring out, debris was flying everywhere, we were joking around saying its like Godzilla has attacked. We were all looking up at the towers. From our vantage point we had a perfect view of both towers (google map 45 Broadway and you'll see where I was).

It was then when the second plane flew over us and slammed in to the south tower. The force of the blast knocked a couple of people standing with to the ground.

That’s when we all realized we were under attack.

My coworker looked at me and said "was that another airliner?" I said yeah, I thought it was a US Airways plane, but another coworker said it was a United plane.

For the next few minutes, we were standing there basically saying "Holy ****!" over and over again, trying to decide what to do now. That’s when we heard another jet. Me and one of my coworkers went to hit the deck, but another coworker (who had been in the Israeli Air Force) said NO, that’s an F-16. Sure enough an F-16 flew by.

After that I went with my colleague closer to the towers, we walked up to Church and Liberty Streets. I've seen some awful things in my life, but this was by far the worst. There was debris and rubble everywhere (and the towers were still standing. Stuff was falling out of the sky like rain. And my colleague said look at that, pointing at a lot of shoes lying on the ground, not in a pile or anything, just scattered around. I thought that it must be from one of the shoe stores in the mall, or from Century 21 somehow, until he pointed out that the shoes still have feet in them.

That’s when I had to leave and go back to my office and call my pregnant wife, if for no other reason to tell her I love her.

I went up in to my office and called my wife who worked in Brooklyn. We couldn’t call out of the 5 boroughs, our long distance was down. So after talking to my wife and telling her I was OK, I went back down to the back of the building (where we had the best view.) The flames were intense coming out of the south tower (2wtc) and even being blocks away and much lower, I could feel the heat on my face and it was hot. It was like being in front of a roaring fireplace. I remember thinking “how the hell are they going to repair this?” It was then when I commented to another coworker about all of the debris still falling out (it had been a while now, almost an hour) and he said “Mike, those are people!” I said “No way!” He said, “Look that one has arms and legs!” And then I saw that the debris I was looking at was actually people falling or jumping out of the building.

That’s when I needed to go inside.

About 15 minutes later, we felt the earth shake. No one knew what was happening. At first we thought another plane had hit the stock exchange, or our building, or something else. So we all evacuated our office and went down the stairs to the lobby. When we got to the lobby, it was dark. You see, 45 Broadway’s lobby is almost all glass, probably 5 stories high, with a waterfall fountain in the middle. It was one of the strangest things I’ve ever seen. The glass was black. I mean 100% totally dark. The only thing I was thinking was “what the hell” and that’s when people started realizing that one of the towers fell. Then occasionally we’d see a shadow up against the glass, a person stuck in the dust. We’d pull them in and clean them up in the fountain.

After a while I decided to go back upstairs to our office. Power in our building was fine, and there was no damage to our building. The lobby was like a refugee center. So I took my team back upstairs. A little while later the dust settled and we could see outside. It was crazy, it looked like a snowstorm had hit. 6-8 inches of grayish white dust everywhere. It was eerie. No one knew what to do. I decided that I was going to stay put and listen to the news.

A little while later the second building came down, and the dust hit and made all of the windows black again. This time it wasn’t so bad since we knew what was happening.

I don’t really remember much of what we did between the time the second tower came down and when a cop finally came in to our office and said we had to evacuate the building since all of downtown was being shutdown, and cleared out. That was around 2:30 IIRC.

All I knew was that I had to somehow get to my wife in Brooklyn. So we started walking up Broadway when a cop told us it was closed and we had to go east. So we went over to Nassau St. When I hit the area near Cedar St, I could start to see the devastation. There was giant beams and junk everywhere. When I hit Fulton St. (I think) I could finally get over to Broadway to see the damage. There was rubble 20 stories high. It’s a sight I can’t even explain. It was a complete disaster. I was in total shock. That’s when I saw WTC7 on fire. I didn’t even notice it at first. There was hot dust and debris raining down, thick smoke billowing overhead. Building 7 wasn’t even a blip on my radar. But then I noticed it. It was on fire like the towering inferno. I mean flames were everywhere. I thought there were flames coming out on all floors, but I guess that’s because of all of the smoke. I kept looking at the building. It had so much debris up against it, and I mean big huge chucks of debris. Without you actually being there, you just can’t get the enormous scale of the disaster. The twisted steel and chunks of concrete were just so huge that my mind couldn’t comprehend it. And these were piled up against the building and sticking out of it at some levels. I can’t stress enough how enormous these beams and debris were. All of the pictures show the pile, but without actually seeing it, it is truly indescribable. WTC7 had granite of marble façade and there were HUGE cracks going up and down the façade too.

Anyway, I was looking at WTC7 and I noticed that it wasn’t looking like it was straight. It was really weird. The closest corner to me (the SE corner) was kind of out of whack with the SW corner. It was impossible to tell whether that corner (the SW) was leaning over more or even if it was leaning the other way. With all of the smoke and the debris pile, I couldn’t exactly tell what was going on, but I sure could see the building was leaning over in a way it certainly should not be. I asked another guy looking with me and he said “That building is going to come down, we better get out of here.” So we did.

I walked down Fulton to try to get on to the Brooklyn Bridge. Cops told me it was closed, even though there were people walking on it. So I had to then walk uptown to the Manhattan Bridge. There were literally thousands of people walking across the bridge. It looked like refugees. As I was walking over the bridge, we all heard a Jet screaming. This is absolutely the worst part of the whole day for me. Time stopped. No one made a sound. It was the scariest thing I have ever felt. I thought, “It’s another plane, that’s what I’d do if I were a terrorist. Wait until everyone is evacuating and hit the bridges.” I truly thought my life was over. You know how they say your life flashes before your eyes? Well it’s true. I saw every victory and every tragedy I’d ever experienced. And I thought to myself, “well, I’ve had a good life, I only wish I’d have been able to see my child born (my wife was 4.5 months pregnant). Then I saw it was an F-15 and all of a sudden, all was well. I truly felt like I had been given a new life.

That’s about it, I got to my wife’s office, and we rented a car, and drove home to NJ. Then for the next couple of weeks I watched the news and cried a lot.

You are welcome to ask me any questions you may have.
 

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