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The whole shebang will be flushed

coberst

Critical Thinker
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
415
The whole shebang will be flushed

I would say that the basic facts that we have, with which to start the search for the cusp of instinctive and reasoned behavior might be:

1) Somewhere in the chain of life, from its mysterious beginning to the present, there exists a point when the behavior of creatures is influenced by something we call reason rather than something we call instinct.

2) Using computer lingo, we can classify instinct as behavior caused by hardwired algorithms.

3) Reason is a means to control behavior based upon real time assessment of real time circumstances.

4) Reason requires that data from the senses be ordered into some fashion that will facilitate real time inferences, this is called conceptualization; followed by inferences made from these concepts.

5) We have, from computer modeling technology, empirical evidence that the neural system that control perception and mobility have the capacity to conceptualize and to infer. In other words, the essential elements of sensorimotor control are also similar to the essential elements of reasoning.

6) If biology has created the structure that has the elements for reasoning, it is logical to conclude that such a system would not be duplicated for reason but that this very same system would be modified in whatever manner is necessary for it to function also as an instrument that can reason.

Instinct controlled the behavior of creatures until reason kicked in and now humans are controlled to a large extent by reason rather than instinct. Throughout time the evolutionary process, which includes instinctive behavior, maintained some form of equilibrium in the world. With the introduction of rational creatures this evolutionary process has been drastically disrupted.

As reasoning creatures that have disrupted the evolutionary process, we must replace this evolutionary process with a rational process that can duplicate or improve on the natural evolutionary process. If we cannot perform this prodigious task adequately the whole shebang will be flushed down the toilet.

Secretary of State Powell said in regards to the Iraq war that “if we break it, we own it”. I think we can say the same thing about our human activity and natural evolution. We break natural evolution and thereby we own the problems caused by that action.
 
Secretary of State Powell said in regards to the Iraq war that “if we break it, we own it”. I think we can say the same thing about our human activity and natural evolution. We break natural evolution and thereby we own the problems caused by that action.

We also own the benefits, which is why this ability, reasoning, evolved. It was better for our ancestors than was pure instinct.

And what you call instinct in animals is really also a fantastically evolved computational mechanism.
 
You can't break evolution. Selective pressure can be internal, such as biofeedback, or external, such as asteroids hitting the planet. Unless life is completely wiped out (unlikely, IMO), it will continue to evolve.

Humanity? We'll see. We haven't been here long yet, so it is too early to say whether or not they are "built for the long haul".
 
5) We have, from computer modeling technology, empirical evidence that the neural system that control perception and mobility have the capacity to conceptualize and to infer. In other words, the essential elements of sensorimotor control are also similar to the essential elements of reasoning.

I don't believe this is true. Can you provide a source, please?
 
As someone who works in the wastewater industry, I resent the negative "flushed" analogy. I happen to think that flushed is usually a good thing. Now please provide a proper definition of "shebang." I'm afraid to google it.
 
I don't believe this is true. Can you provide a source, please?
"Philosophy in the Flesh" by Lakoff and Johnson
Zizzy, you still have to ask? It seems like almost everything Coberst has posted has been from that book. I think it is getting close to the point where we can reconstruct that book, word for word, simply by arranging Coberst's posts in the correct order. :D
 
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Zizzy, you still have to ask? It seems like almost everything Coberst has posted has been from that book. I think it is getting close to the point where we can reconstruct that book, word for word, simply by arranging Coberst's posts in the correct order. :D

Yeah, I know. But I'm lazy and didn't feel like looking it up.
 
As someone who works in the wastewater industry, I resent the negative "flushed" analogy. I happen to think that flushed is usually a good thing. Now please provide a proper definition of "shebang." I'm afraid to google it.


You might find that owning a dictonary to be useful. Shebang--everything involved in what is under consideration.
 
2) Using computer lingo, we can classify instinct as behavior caused by hardwired algorithms.
It has been classified that way, yes. However, in reality those 'hardwired algorithms' often have a surprising flexibility. They are not so hard as once thought, and the term instinct fell somewhat in disfavour.

3) Reason is a means to control behavior based upon real time assessment of real time circumstances.
And so is instinct...

4) Reason requires that data from the senses be ordered into some fashion that will facilitate real time inferences, this is called conceptualization; followed by inferences made from these concepts.
I think a better definition of "reason" or "conceptualisation" would be that it isn't real time. Differently from what is often called "instinct", "reason" can be time-shifted. I can reason about possible future circumstances I might find myself in, and I can also reason about circumstances I used to be in. Because I can conceptualise things in the past or future, I can imagine would I might have done, or plan what I am going to do. That's much closer to what people usually mean with "reason", I think. "Instinct" on the other hand is usually thought of as a realtime reaction to stimuli without any fore- or afterthought.
 
As reasoning creatures that have disrupted the evolutionary process, we must replace this evolutionary process with a rational process that can duplicate or improve on the natural evolutionary process. If we cannot perform this prodigious task adequately the whole shebang will be flushed down the toilet.

I don't understand your point. What do you mean by "the whole shebang will be flushed"? What are the practical implications of your argument? Is it just that humans are disrupting evolution? If so, I don't understand why that would necessarily be a bad thing. I mean, evolution gave us velociraptors and those things were [rule8]ing scary.
 
Is shebang like shebop but with another person?

We-hell-I see them every night in tight blue jeans--
In the pages of a blue boy magazine
Hey I've been thinking of a new sensation
I'm picking up--good vibration--
Oop--she bop--

Do I wanna go out with a lion's roar
Huh, yea, I wanna go south n get me some more
Hey, they say that a stitch in time saves nine
They say I better stop--or I'll go blind
Oop--she bop--she bop

She bop--he bop--a--we bop
I bop--you bop--a--they bop
Be bop--be bop--a--lu--she bop,
I hope He will understand
She bop--he bop--a--we bop
I bop--you bop--a--they bop
Be bop--be bop--a--lu--she bop,
Oo--oo--she--do--she bop--she bop

(whistle along here)...

Hey, hey--they say I better get a chaperone
Because I can't stop messin' with the danger zone
No, I won't worry, and I won't fret--
Ain't no law against it yet--
Oop--she bop--she bop--

She bop--he bop--we bop...
 

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