Explosions != explosives in the Twin Towers

[Bell]

<snip>

Anti-sophist, Two firefighters I talked to in Central Park on Oct 9th said they heard, saw and felt explosions in WTC 1 & 2. They not pointing a finger at how explosives got there just saying they were there.

I guess it's probably best to state right now I'm not your typical Loose Change CT. I don't buy everything the official story tells us but at the sametime I don't a written in stone theory. I'm just looking at all sides and coming up with questions. Even when I think I have an answer to a question, I question that answer.

You do know that explosions != explosives?

I'm sure they heard, saw and felt explosions. That's what happens in a big fire.

I'm sure a firefighter would know what happens in a big fire probably better than both of us. They were saying explosions caused by extra devices in the building

How did they know they where extra devices? Did they see them? How did they know they were bombs?

There was a lot of confussion on 9/11.

When the federal building in Oklahoma was bombed, there were a lot of reports of a 2nd, 3rd even a 4th device discovered. It's just how people react when such a dissaster happens and everybody is on his toes.

 

[DanKirby]

When the federal building in Oklahoma was bombed, there were a lot of reports of a 2nd, 3rd even a 4th device discovered. It's just how people react when such a dissaster happens and everybody is on his toes.

Well, that was a conspiracy too, according to some of these guys.

 

[Usual Suspect]

Bell first we may have gotten off on the wrong foot. I'm not the Loose Change CT that you guys love so much. I don't just ask questions. I look and research for answers. When I come up with an answer I accept that no matter what the answer. Too many CT come up with a theory and then make all questions and answers fit. My views go beyond the attacks themselves and though I question exactly what happened LC doesn't represent my answers or feelings.

As for how did they know they were by extra devices I can't say cause they didn't. They did however say they were explosions that can not be explained only by the fire. These are firefighters I'm sure they know their job. I would love to ask them many more questions and get an interview or pass their names on to Gravy however I can't. I was asked by both to keep their names to myself. I told Gravy the story of how I met them. let's say they were letting me know I wasn't wrong to question. When I asked for an interview they asked what good it would do without their names. When I asked why I couldn't use their names they said they have years in on the job and families to support.

 

[Usual Suspect]

Well, that was a conspiracy too, according to some of these guys.

Read my last reply and please don't count me in as "some of these guys". Thanks.

 

[Bell]

Bell first we may have gotten off on the wrong foot. I'm not the Loose Change CT that you guys love so much. I don't just ask questions. I look and research for answers. When I come up with an answer I accept that no matter what the answer. Too many CT come up with a theory and then make all questions and answers fit. My views go beyond the attacks themselves and though I question exactly what happened LC doesn't represent my answers or feelings.

As for how did they know they were by extra devices I can't say cause they didn't. They did however say they were explosions that can not be explained only by the fire. These are firefighters I'm sure they know their job. I would love to ask them many more questions and get an interview or pass their names on to Gravy however I can't. I was asked by both to keep their names to myself. I told Gravy the story of how I met them. let's say they were letting me know I wasn't wrong to question. When I asked for an interview they asked what good it would do without their names. When I asked why I couldn't use their names they said they have years in on the job and families to support.

I think you may have misunderstood me. I don't say you are an LC nutter (you clearly said that in your posts) but I started this thread because it didn't belong in the why we fight thread

If two firefighters told you they saw explosive devices in the WTC, I believe that they thought they saw just that. But as stated in the OP, when such events, as chaotic and huge as 9/11, happen a lot of misjudgements are made. I don't say they are lying, just wrong on their interpretations.

Also remember, 343 of their brothers died that day. I think it's very natural to reflect that anger onto (local) government who failed to protect them.

 

[Gravy]

I started a thread about this recently. It covers some of the more dramatic CT claims of bombs in the buildings. http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65980

 

[Gravy]

Also remember, 343 of their brothers died that day. I think it's very natural to reflect that anger onto (local) government who failed to protect them.

I don't know about local government failing to protect them.

 

[Usual Suspect]

Also remember, 343 of their brothers died that day. I think it's very natural to reflect that anger onto (local) government who failed to protect them.

And there is why I look into different views. That makes sense and I didn't think about it that way.

 

[Crungy]

Regarding the explosions, my first thought, is that they were produced by various components making up the mechanical systems. In any design situation where are significant amount of vertical head is required, the pressure in hydronic systems, chilled and hot water, will be very high. Not only burst piping risers and mains, but the associated pumps, fans, boilers and chillers would result in some significant blast woo. Also, if there were any DC battery plants in the buildings, that would caused a serious explosion. Oops! I forgot about my sparky buds. Transformers and other electrical equipment would also result in major blast woo.

I've seen plenty of architectural and structural drawings and diagrams on the web, but have come up short when trying to google the mechanical systems. If anyone knows of a link discussing and or showing the mechanical systems, please let me know. I did see that wikipedia has a stacking diagram of the towers. I'm surprised that the WTC towers had eight mechanical floors. With the materials today, you can get by with 4-5 for a building that high. I wonder if heating was done with via electricity (which was popular during the 60s / early 70s) or hot water or steam. If hot water or steam, were the boilers gas fired or fuel fired?

 

[gumboot]

I don't know about local government failing to protect them.

Maybe they mean in reference to poor equipment? The radios, etc? Also, I get the feeling much of the ill-feeling in the FDNY towards govt would be in response to what happened AFTER 9/11 with failures to fill the enormous gap in manpower, lack of financial and medical support for those who worked at GZ during rescue operations, etc...

-Gumboot

 

[Bell]

Maybe they mean in reference to poor equipment? The radios, etc? Also, I get the feeling much of the ill-feeling in the FDNY towards govt would be in response to what happened AFTER 9/11 with failures to fill the enormous gap in manpower, lack of financial and medical support for those who worked at GZ during rescue operations, etc...

-Gumboot

That's what I meant indeed. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that, Gravy.

 

[Gravy]

Maybe they mean in reference to poor equipment? The radios, etc? Also, I get the feeling much of the ill-feeling in the FDNY towards govt would be in response to what happened AFTER 9/11 with failures to fill the enormous gap in manpower, lack of financial and medical support for those who worked at GZ during rescue operations, etc...

-Gumboot

I suspect you're right, but can't say for sure. There's always a battle between the uniformed services and the people who hold the purse strings. As for equipment, while it can never be too good for them, the main problems were the damage to the buildings and the failure to properly operate the repeater system, and the interference caused by the dust after the south tower collapse. Most of the first responders died in and around the south tower, which no one knew was going to collapse.

 

[Bell]

And there is why I look into different views. That makes sense and I didn't think about it that way.

That is really brave of you to admit that

Also (but I'm sure Gravy or other members knows more about this?) I believe a lot of the firefighters and rescuers anger could have to do with the discussion about the safety of the air at GZ and them getting sick?

NY Times article