"Why We Fight..."

[G-K-4]

Realitybites,

Although I agree with what most people here have to say, I would add the following: Don't burn out. This is good work you're doing, but if you don't think that you can continue to do as much as you have been, step back and take a rest. Maybe you could reduce the amount of time in your "shift", or go out only every other week.

At the same time, talk about this with other people in town who might be willing to take your place. If you get someone to fill in for you, you're still contributing (only less directly).

And maybe after some time off, you'll be ready to go back into it.

Finally, what will happen when the new skyscraper is built? Will the CTers have to move somewhere else, perhaps someplace where debunking them is less pressing? These circumstances may put an end date on the problem, anyway.

 

[realitybites]

Realitybites,

Although I agree with what most people here have to say, I would add the following: Don't burn out. This is good work you're doing, but if you don't think that you can continue to do as much as you have been, step back and take a rest. Maybe you could reduce the amount of time in your "shift", or go out only every other week.

At the same time, talk about this with other people in town who might be willing to take your place. If you get someone to fill in for you, you're still contributing (only less directly).

And maybe after some time off, you'll be ready to go back into it.

Finally, what will happen when the new skyscraper is built? Will the CTers have to move somewhere else, perhaps someplace where debunking them is less pressing? These circumstances may put an end date on the problem, anyway.

Good point. And something I've thought about doing - taking a breather. But as of right now, I figure I can rest when the weather gets colder.

As far as the Freedom Tower and the memorial goes, I have no idea if the whackjobs will stay there once it's completed.

The thought of them doing this in front of the memorial entrance or around the reflecting pools makes my blood boil though.

 

[Bell]

Maybe the deniers will stop after your presidential election? Except the few oddballs (MIHOP LIHOP guy) maybe the interest in this whole 'inside job' insanity will go away.

 

[Mongrel]

So, it was five against more than a thousand. I'm guessing that the black shirt crowd was 1,000: a good showing but nothing like what the Loosers had predicted. Then there were many deniers who didn't hang with that crowd and didn't play by their rules. We took on all comers. We kicked denier ass with facts and received the gratitude of hundreds of people, with firefighters from around the country prominent among them.

Three and a half hours later, I did leave, but not until two men, both bigger than me, hugged me. At separate times. One was crying and the other nearly was. This does not happen every day. Yes, they had both been at O'Hara's a little too long.

Necessary - Absolutely
Appropriate - On the whole yes. If the firefighters are with you I couldn't think of a better stamp of approval

 

[Kryptos]

It annoys me that the situation has come to this, but think the whole CT "movement" has to do with people's mistrust of government (and the mainstream media) and government ethics. It doesn't entirely have to do with Bush either, as some people think Clinton was behind the OKC bombing, etc. Though, Bush's strategy in Iraq isn't helpful.

Yet, people think (like Hollywood and CSI), that government has all these advanced technologies and capabilities, and competence, to pull off vast secret conspiracies. I can only suggest people read this recent article in the Washington Post: The FBI's Upgrade That Wasn't, to get sense of how incompetent and untechnologically savvy the government is.

I remember the vast amount of goodwill that Europeans and others around the world had for Americans immediately after 9/11. Hate to see that morph into the strong anti-American sentiment that I see around the world, and even within the U.S. CTs may be some extreme element of that, combined with their mistrust of government, and fantasy ideas of what government is capable of. (though, nice to see the smart, sane group here, with many countries represented)

To have these people approach tourists at GZ with their misinformation annoys me. I ran into these people earlier this summer outside the PATH station (not sure where Mark, Abby, and RealityBites were?). I simply feel that CTs can't be the only voice at GZ. It's helpful to have a small group of people there who have done their homework, are well-informed about 9/11, and can be there to answer questions and in a sense be "ambassadors" for the visitors to GZ. They have such "ambassadors" at the Flight 93 Memorial near Shanksville. I think that's more the point of being at GZ , and when the CTs engage tourists, we should have some people there to step into the discussions.

Enough ranting, but my 2 cents.

-Kate

 

[jujigatami]

– Because it's difficult for people who were more seriously affected by the attacks to debate the creeps with dignity.

Thanks for that Gravy (and Abby and Everyone else).

I was one of those "more seriously affected" The things I saw and did that day have seriously serioulsy messed me up.

I've worked downtown for years still, and I have to see these deniers all the time.

I have to walk by. I can't bring myself to confront them. I won't be able to hold back my anger and rage.

The sad part is that I'm a great debater, I could verbally hammer them in to submission, but there is simply no way, at this point, only 5 years later, that I would be able to hold back from slamming them in to the pavement.

No way.

Thank you far all you are doing, at GZ and everywhere!

 

[Almo]

Kick their asses.

 

[Kryptos]

I know that the Tribute WTC Visitor Center is now open:
http://www.tributenyc.org/visitors.html

Maybe that (and the daily tours they do) can serve a similar function as the Flight 93 ambassadors.

But, the WTC tribute center is located next to Ladder 10, so I doubt the CTs would venture over there (nor would they care). CTs are staked out by the PATH station. Maybe just my opinion, but the WTC tribute center is great but not enough. And like it or not, GZ is a place that tourists will be drawn to. I think some presence (aside from the CTs) is needed by the PATH station. People there to answer questions, provide information, etc. should some tourists want it. And, I know the CTs are there mainly Saturdays (or am I wrong and are they there more than that now?)

At the Flight 93 memorial, the ambassadors are there from morning to sunset, scheduled in two hour shifts. And, I suppose if the memorial there was lit up at night the way GZ is, the ambassadors would be there into the night. And at the WWII memorial in Washington, they also have "ambassadors" who are there 24x7.

So, I think some legitimate source of information, "ambassadors" by the PATH station is what's really needed with extended hours before/after the tribute center is open. This would be much more than merely a counterweight to CTs and their nonsense, but be a resource for visitors. Unless/until something more formal like this is set-up, I think having counter-CTs at GZ on Saturdays is good. And even if something more formal like this was set-up, added counter-CTs presence is helpful when the added presence from the truthers is there. Right now, I sense a vacuum of information, and having CTs there as the only voice by the PATH station is entirely unhelpful.

I happened to be in this part of Pennsylvania in July, and stopped at the memorial to check it out. This is the temporary memorial, with the memorial benches and the ambassador's "kiosk" at the Flight 93 memorial. The atmosphere there is very quiet, somber, and entirely respectful of the victims, without any of the 9/11 truthers "circus" and disrespect.

Here's more information about the ambassadors:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06255/721163-85.stm (and more pics)

-Kate

 

[defaultdotxbe]

Are we giving credibility to the CTers by being there? Are we taking credibility away from the general public by inadvertantly assuming that they wouldn't be able to see through the BS on their own?

i dont think so, no more than an active police force is implying the general public is incapable of defending themselves, regardless of the issue its important both sides are expressed

as for ground zero, as i said before, you didnt choose to go there, the truthers did, you go there because thats where the truthers go

 

[hellaeon]

they run from every other proper debate, confront them on the warground they have chosen. People notice this and are more informed. Eventually the people will force them away or the authorities will need to move them to avoid a riot.

I say your not dishonoring anyone. If a few think that, its an opinion. Have a steely resolve. These CT guys are a dsigrace to human thinking. Get down there and sock em with the facts. They'll crack.

 

[Infinite]

Yes, Ground Zero is the site where thousands died. But is that all it is? No, it's not. It is the centre of an international city. It is at the heart of a hub of commerce and culture.

I still remember being at the top of the Twin Towers and having a stranger take a picture of my boyfriend (who I later married) and I. We had our "I Love New York" tee shirts on and I still have that picture. Years have passed and I still remember that day on top of the towers. I couldn't imagine people, hundreds of them fleeing for their living for a way out of there, trapped.
A memmory so wonderful and happy clouded with the acts of that day.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Great posts all, and especially gumboot and Gravy.


"Take your hat off to the past, but your coat off for the future." - W.G.P. (William George Plunkett.)


The Troofers also feel strongly about 9/11. But while they're 'just asking questions', you have addressed those questions and found undeniable answers.

What do you do with those answers? You probably feel compelled to share them, and rightly so, but how?

You are in the right place to confront the very worst aspect of the moovmint - the troofers upsetting mourners on an emotional pilgrimage - and you can defend those mourners and the truth at the same time. Gamn right it's appropriate to do so.

I wanted to tell you to take a break every now and then, if you need it, and I see G-K-4 has already suggested something similar.

Perhaps look for a different debunking project as well, if you sometimes tire of playing whack-a-mole. Find something that might reach more than one person at a time. However, don't forget that posting here and elsewhere would have many good effects on fence-sitters that you will probably never see. (Has anyone else noticed that we seem to have been getting a lot of new posters lately joining our 'side'?)

 

[qarnos]

First of all, I have only read the first 10 or so posts of this thread, so forgive me if this had been said already (poor form, I know).

Have you considered trying to arrange a truce with LTW? Perhaps talk to them and come to a handshake agreement that neither parties will "patrol" ground zero.

I know it is a long shot but I think an attempt should at least be made.

Personally, I would much rather have you guys at ground zero combatting the LCers rather than let them have a free run, but it would be nice if both sides could call this whole thing off.

I feel out of line here. I am on the other side of the world and have no idea what it is like to have to put up with these idiots first-hand, but that is my $AU0.02 (you will have to do the currency conversion yourself )

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

– So that on September 11, 2007, people can go to Ground Zero without running into a crowd of uniformed "patriots" marching behind a ranting charismatic leader to shout "Murderer!" outside the business of a wealthy Jewish "conspirator."

– Because these creeps have the nerve to call themselves a "truth movement."

– Because they choose to spread their excrement at Ground Zero.

– Because it's a bad idea to ignore – or to deny the existence of – terrorists who say they want to kill me.

– Because it's difficult for people who were more seriously affected by the attacks to debate the creeps with dignity.

– Because firefighters thanked us for learning about what they do and standing up for them. Because the creeps make it necessary to defend the people who would enter the maws of hell to save them.

– Because this isn't just about 9/11. It's about reason vs. deliberate ignorance, the joys of learning vs. intellectual cowardice, professionalism vs. hacksterism, the scientific method vs. blind faith, compassion vs. blind hatred.

– Because the creeps have difficulty with reality, and when we confront them in the flesh, demand that they produce evidence to back their claims, and publicly demonstrate how arrogantly uninformed they are, it's undeniably real. Not only can they not ignore us, we aggravate the hell out of them.

– Because I believe that, except for a few of them, they are capable of learning and have learned and will continue to learn. It's a hard slog, because rather than taking an analytical approach to the information we present, their default position is adversarial. Very well. My position is that if they refuse to sit down to a civilized tea with the facts, they will be hammered with them. I have some projects in the works that I think will be very effective in that regard. They've been at this for years. We've taken a few small steps in a few months and have already made a big difference.

– Because ever since Abby told me that the creeps also protest outside the New York Public Library, I can't wait to go and expose that delicious irony. (and maybe read some poetry: "Beauty is truth, truth beauty...")

– Because it's fun to be mysterious when my old drinking buddies ask if I've found some new drinking buddies or something (most don't know I'm involved with this insanity: I release that information on a need-to-know basis only).

– Because the gubmint salary, health plan, and pension are highly satisfactory, our jobs are unlikely to be outsourced to Mumbai, and Dick Cheney is holding my cat at knifepoint.

Excellent post, but if I may so bold as to add...

- Because someone has to stand up for the truth...

...and if not us, then who?

 

[realitybites]

Have you considered trying to arrange a truce with LTW? Perhaps talk to them and come to a handshake agreement that neither parties will "patrol" ground zero.

I know it is a long shot but I think an attempt should at least be made.

It's actually not the LTW crew that's there regularly, it's the New York faction of 911truth.org.

Abby and I have had discussions about whether we'd still meet them head-on if they did this in Union Square or City Hall. I don't think we would. At least, I wouldn't be as motivated to go. It's because they're at Ground Zero... that's what bothers me.

And I unfortunately don't see them agreeing to take their act elsewhere.

 

[Kryptos]

Abby and I have had discussions about whether we'd still meet them head-on if they did this in Union Square or City Hall. I don't think we would. At least, I wouldn't be as motivated to go. It's because they're at Ground Zero... that's what bothers me.

Agree completely. I could care less if they staked out at the White House, go on hunger strike, or whatever. Or, they should try taking the "truth" to the Pentagon, and see what happens to them.

-Kate

 

[Bell]

Agree completely. I could care less if they staked out at the White House, go on hunger strike, or whatever. Or, they should try taking the "truth" to the Pentagon, and see what happens to them.

-Kate

Cuz, liek teh Pentagon is liek, teh heaviest defended military building in liek teh whole world.

w00t



[/derail]

 

[Usual Suspect]

– Because firefighters thanked us for learning about what they do and standing up for them. Because the creeps make it necessary to defend the people who would enter the maws of hell to save them.

I know firefighters who were there and say they are being lied to about what happened that day.

 

[Pardalis]

I know firefighters who were there and say they are being lied to about what happened that day.

That's why people here fight people like you.

 

[Usual Suspect]

That's why people here fight people like you.

Because I was pointing out that there are firefighters who say they are being lied to?? It is implied here that all firefighters believe the official story. I'm just stating that is not that case.