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Why it's worth debunking the Deniers

chipmunk stew

Philosopher
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
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I read this post on the British 9/11 Truth forum earlier today. It illustrates why the debunking effort is worth it. For someone on the fence, it's so much easier to pull back from the brink when they witness the claims being challenged and deconstructed.
http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=29216#29216
Bushwacker said:
Wobbler, interestingly I find myself heading in what may be the opposite direction to you. I basically came to this site because of WTC7, which looked so much like a controlled demolition to me. If it was, then clearly there was a conspiracy in which the government was almost certainly linked. I hoped after 5 years that some answers were available on the internet that were not in the mainstream media.

Instead I find that:

1. Regarding WTC7, there is no more real evidence available now than the day it went down, but people who claim to be looking for truth are prepared to twist Silverstein's "pull it" remark completely out of context to try to pretend he said something he didn't. The motives suggested for a CD are quite unconvincing. The firefighters report more extensive damage than seems to have been photographed and thought it would collapse, but on the other hand NIST still cannot explain the mechanism of the collapse. Demolition experts on the scene did not think it was brought down by CD and thought it would collapse. A Dutch demolition expert viewing it on video thought it was CD. I am leaning to the view that a collapse due to the fires is more likely than CD.

2. There is in fact no hard irrefutable evidence that any part of the official story is wrong.

3. The one thing there seems to be consensus on here is that the towers were brought down in a CD using thermate. This is utterly implausible, given than thermate is never used in this way in professional demolition, it supposes that a form of thermate could be used that would be explosive, the idea of placing it on every pillar on every floor is ludicrous, and protecting it from the aircraft impact and fire prior to detonation would not be feasible. Prof Jones' investigations are plainly designed to get the results he wants.

4. I am surprised to find that there is no sign of any coherent narrative emerging from the truthers' side. Indeed everyone has their own particular interest and theory but it does not seem to be regarded as at all important to establish any form of agreed narrative. The theories themselves range from the plausible, such as Flight 93 was shot down, to the totally barking "no planes" theory, from those for whom the internet has totally replaced reality.

5. The contributors to this site, despite its name, do not actually seem to be looking for the truth, they are instead protecting their beliefs. One administrator has as his signature "Ask the tough questions, folks" but asking the tough questions of the truthers on this site mostly produces abuse and labelling as a shill. It is more like a cult than an enquiry, where questioning the belief system brings down punishment on your head. The lies, distortions, evasions and half-truths come almost entirely from the truthers, and the facts and reasoned arguments mostly from the critics.

Setting it down has clarified things for me - count me among the critics now.
 
I read this post on the British 9/11 Truth forum earlier today. It illustrates why the debunking effort is worth it. For someone on the fence, it's so much easier to pull back from the brink when they witness the claims being challenged and deconstructed.
http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=29216#29216

Is it really worth to debunk them? Sometimes i think they believe much harder in their crap when the "NWO" tries to debunk them. :boggled:
 
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Great job, Chipmunk Stew and all the others who've been posting over there. Perhaps I've been wrong in my assessment that you cannot turn Deniers into Debunkers.:D
 
For every "poster" that is convinced, there are probably 100s of lurkers that we effect. They saw loose change, had some BS meters going off, and just need some confirmation that these people are 50% crazy and 50% bad at science. It only takes reading a handful of posts to convince most people of both.
 
That is awsome Chipmunk. You have restored my faith in the argument/debate process in one swift post. Thank you.

TAM:D :D
 
Great post chipmunk

For every "poster" that is convinced, there are probably 100s of lurkers that we effect. They saw loose change, had some BS meters going off, and just need some confirmation that these people are 50% crazy and 50% bad at science. It only takes reading a handful of posts to convince most people of both.

I hope that's true :)
 
I really want to thank you, chipmunk, for showing us that post, and for your work there and here (and elsewhere). That really made my day. I've been pretty much beating my head against the brick walls of denial put up by CTists at another forum and it gave me the strength to keep going today.
I hope that each story like that leads to that person helping their friends and contacts and other lurkers sort through the garbage.
 
I saw that pentagon flash vid, the no wreckage one.

I belived it.

Recently all these CT's have been brough to my attention, and I did some investigating, reading sites like this.

I'm now certain a plane hit the pentagon.

On the LC site they say they belive the LC video to have a 90% Conversion rate, well...They didn't get me.
 
I saw that pentagon flash vid, the no wreckage one.

I belived it.

Recently all these CT's have been brough to my attention, and I did some investigating, reading sites like this.

I'm now certain a plane hit the pentagon.

On the LC site they say they belive the LC video to have a 90% Conversion rate, well...They didn't get me.

Welcome eddyk, to the JREF Forum on Conspiracy Theories. The people here are good people. This site allows for all opinions, bot CTist and Debunker povs. If you bring a strong opinion to a topic, be prepared to defend it...they debate fiercely here.

As for your "non-conversion" to CTist povs, it probably goes to show that you are using the logical part of your brain. The CTist side of things can be quite alluring with its "intrigue/spy/big coverup" appeal, but really is just a collection of cherry picked mis=quote, unsubstantiated conjecture, and quarter-truths.

Welcome aboard.

TAM
 
It's worth it to help the wobbling ones. Even if you don't convert someone, you force them to adapt a kookier theory that scares away potential CTs. How many times has someone in here critiqued a theory only to have that critique integrated, at least partially, on the LC board or a CT Internet show?
 
It's worth it to help the wobbling ones. Even if you don't convert someone, you force them to adapt a kookier theory that scares away potential CTs. How many times has someone in here critiqued a theory only to have that critique integrated, at least partially, on the LC board or a CT Internet show?

And as a fringe benefit, the mental gymnastics that are required when a CT is forced to morph his already fairly unlikely theory into a hugely unlikely theory when faced with evidence contrary to it can be entertaining.
 
Case in point, the vague, "going nowhere" crap that was LC2e-Recut. That version was so watered down from the original, due mainly to the debunkers, that half of it was just pointless rambling.

TAM
 
Case in point, the vague, "going nowhere" crap that was LC2e-Recut. That version was so watered down from the original, due mainly to the debunkers, that half of it was just pointless rambling.

TAM

And I see that 911research.wtc7 is morphing too.

Hoffman has removed his "energy sink" calculations (the 'all concrete became 60 micron dust' pseudo-scientific filth) owing to "critiques by various reviewers"

Somewhere along the way he also came to class the Pentagon attack as being a booby-trap for CTists.

(actually, having just gone back there for the first time in a while the whole site seems to be morphing into a gigantic mess)
 
Hoffman has a good critique of the Pentagon hoax. It makes for good reading when a kook comes clean on a dodgy theory while still holding on to other bizarre theories. The arguments with other kooks beats TV.
 
Hoffman has a good critique of the Pentagon hoax. It makes for good reading when a kook comes clean on a dodgy theory while still holding on to other bizarre theories. The arguments with other kooks beats TV.

Well, every single one of these people are capable of critical thinking. The CT movement comes from their selectively excluding certain pet ideas from the critical thinking process.

Even the craziest tinfoil hat guy sitting in his basement can likely sniff out an internet scam when he sees one, or knows that urban legends are B.S. So they have the ability, they're just selective in how they apply it.
 

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