SkepticWiki And The Bible

[Jono]

While that may be true of modern Judaism, the old testament is full of god's commandments to lay waste to neighboring tribes and villages whose only crime is worshiping a different god. The Midianites and the Caanites would likely have a thing two to say against the Old Testament, and ancient Judaism.

Surely that's so, but if the point is, with doing a critical presentation of the OT, to lambast christianity and judaism as following these veins of action which very few do, then that point is erronous.

It depends on the conclusion which one has in the back of their head when doing so.

For example, oft at Stormfront I get shunned for being an "apologist" of the jews and so forth, simply because I explain to them (and in what light they are actually understood) the actual context of the poorly but carefully cherry-picked quotes they've managed to derive of the Talmud, to use against jews as a whole.

It's perfectly fine to have criticism toward these matters naturally, but from my own experience many over-do it ad nauseum, turning it into an issue of absolutes, ie if one believes this then one is believing in evil etc etc and reluctance to budge an inch of their obviously emotional attachment... which is in a way an article of faith in itself.

In real effect it turns one into just another zealot hardliner, theist or not.
This was a slight hint I noticed of the evilbible site.
In general, this is also what I have a problem with.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Surely that's so, but if the point is, with doing a critical presentation of the OT, to lambast christianity and judaism as following these veins of action which very few do, then that point is erronous.

It depends on the conclusion which one has in the back of their head when doing so.

For example, oft at Stormfront I get shunned for being an "apologist" of the jews and so forth, simply because I explain to them (and in what light they are actually understood) the actual context of the poorly but carefully cherry-picked quotes they've managed to derive of the Talmud, to use against jews as a whole.

It's perfectly fine to have criticism toward these matters naturally, but from my own experience many over-do it ad nauseum, turning it into an issue of absolutes, ie if one believes this then one is believing in evil etc etc and reluctance to budge an inch of their obviously emotional attachment... which is in a way an article of faith in itself.

In real effect it turns one into just another zealot hardliner, theist or not.
This was a slight hint I noticed of the evilbible site.
In general, this is also what I have a problem with.

Don't misunderstand me, as much as I rail against the Bible, and Chrisitanity and Judaism as being irrational and bizzare I by no means mean to say they're exceptionally more barbaric or illogical than any other religion. All religions, most especially those with ancient roots, are barbaric, xenophobic, and full of the prejudices and pecadillios of the people of their time. I just pick on Christianity in particular because Christians prosyeltize the most, and are the most prevalent in my culture. Were I an Indian atheist, I would no doubt rail less against Christianity and the Bible, and more against Hinduism and the Bhaghavad Gita.

 

[Jono]

Don't misunderstand me, as much as I rail against the Bible, and Chrisitanity and Judaism as being irrational and bizzare I by no means mean to say they're exceptionally more barbaric or illogical than any other religion. All religions, most especially those with ancient roots, are barbaric, xenophobic, and full of the prejudices and pecadillios of the people of their time. I just pick on Christianity in particular because Christians prosyeltize the most, and are the most prevalent in my culture. Were I an Indian atheist, I would no doubt rail less against Christianity and the Bible, and more against Hinduism and the Bhaghavad Gita.

Yes, I understand, that which is closer to home tends to be more of the focus etc, also christianity as a bombing of a billion adherents. If these anti-semites are worried about a Judaism-conspiracy, of some 15 million, talk about a different perspective on how much more probable such an idea would be for the numbers of the formentioned group.

 

[Bri]

Don't misunderstand me, as much as I rail against the Bible, and Chrisitanity and Judaism as being irrational and bizzare I by no means mean to say they're exceptionally more barbaric or illogical than any other religion. All religions, most especially those with ancient roots, are barbaric, xenophobic, and full of the prejudices and pecadillios of the people of their time.

I don't think religion is the cause of irrationality, barbarism, xenophobia, or prejudice. It may be used as an excuse for those things at times, but those things would likely exist with or without religion.

-Bri

 

[ImaginalDisc]

I don't think religion is the cause of irrationality, barbarism, xenophobia, or prejudice. It may be used as an excuse for those things at times, but those things would likely exist with or without religion.

-Bri

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion. ~ Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate in physics"

 

[Bri]

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion. ~ Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate in physics"

So good atheists never do bad things?

-Bri

 

[ImaginalDisc]

So good atheists never do bad things?

-Bri

From time to time, sure we do. As a matter of routine and personal pride? Certainly not as much as theists.

 

[Bri]

From time to time, sure we do.

Then that seems to refute that "for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."

As a matter of routine and personal pride? Certainly not as much as theists.

Can you provide some evidence of this?

-Bri

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Then that seems to refute that "for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."

It's a pithy quote, not a scientific statement. Of course it's inaccurate.

Can you provide some evidence of this?

-Bri

The Crusades, the Holocaust, The Inquistion, and the conquest of the New World seem to give theism a decisive lead in the doing-evil-while-thinking-they're-doing-good race.

 

[Bri]

It's a pithy quote, not a scientific statement. Of course it's inaccurate.

Then my point still stands. It's unlikely that religion is the cause of irrationality, barbarism, xenophobia, or prejudice.

The Crusades, the Holocaust, The Inquistion, and the conquest of the New World seem to give theism a decisive lead in the doing-evil-while-thinking-they're-doing-good race.

The Holocaust was not a religious movement to my knowledge (although it was largely directed against certain religions), which again seems to indicate that although religion is often used to justify certain actions, it is likely not the cause of those actions.

ETA: It occurs to me that this discussion might best be moved to a different thread (although it has been discussed at length in this forum before) since it has little to do with SkepticWiki.

-Bri

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Then my point still stands. It's unlikely that religion is the cause of irrationality, barbarism, xenophobia, or prejudice.



The Holocaust was not a religious movement to my knowledge (although it was largely directed against certain religions), which again seems to indicate that although religion is often used to justify certain actions, it is likely not the cause of those actions.

-Bri

Mein Kampf is littered, thickly, with statements of Hitler's belief that that the Nazi party's goals were Holy and god's work. Nazi belt buckles and propaganda was thick with religious statements. The Nazis used blood libel as a modivation for rounding up jews. Christianity is a powerful part of the Holocaust.

 

[Jono]

"To know a person's religion we need not listen to his profession of faith but must find his brand of intolerance." -- Eric Hoffer

 

[ImaginalDisc]

I find religion insulting to humanity not just because it's a bundle of a lies, but because everyone's god always seems to tell them exactly what they want to hear.

 

[Jono]

I find religion insulting to humanity not just because it's a bundle of a lies, but because everyone's god always seems to tell them exactly what they want to hear.

Well I don't have quite such a contempt for religion in a general sense, I think there's plenty of golden nuggets therein which I gladly adapt to my sense of moral.
However theocracy of it is nothing short of dangerous irrationale.

 

[Bri]

I find religion insulting to humanity not just because it's a bundle of a lies, but because everyone's god always seems to tell them exactly what they want to hear.

That people hear what they want to hear isn't limited to religion.

-Bri

 

[ceo_esq]

That people hear what they want to hear isn't limited to religion.

Not only that, but when people hear something they don't want to hear, they're apt to dismiss it as "insulting" and "a bundle of lies". Human nature is funny that way.

[ETA:] Certain religions, of course, are known for telling people things even the believers don't want to hear. Think Matthew 19:16-22, or the novels of Graham Greene.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Not only that, but when people hear something they don't want to hear, they're apt to dismiss it as "insulting" and "a bundle of lies". Human nature is funny that way.

[ETA:] Certain religions, of course, are known for telling people things even the believers don't want to hear. Think Matthew 19:16-22, or the novels of Graham Greene.

Uh-huh. Sure.

 

[ceo_esq]

Uh-huh. Sure.

That was only slightly more than the rhetorical equivalent of a grunt. Do you have anything that more specifically engages the points to which you meant to respond?

 

[ImaginalDisc]

That was only slightly more than the rhetorical equivalent of a grunt. Do you have anything that more specifically engages the points to which you meant to respond?

Cute, comming from a man who ignores pointed questions directed to him.

 

[jjramsey]

Cute, comming from a man who ignores pointed questions directed to him.

He didn't ignore them, but rather pointed out that they were irrelevant:

It was irrelevant to my post, to which you were replying....

It's as if I said that I'd examined three 1-dollar bills from Cygnus' wallet, and concluded that they were counterfeit, whereupon you said "Is that so? Well then, let's talk about this other dollar bill I've got! It's the real deal!" So what? No one's disputing that there's such a thing as a real dollar bill, and no one's disputing that there's such a thing as a real Biblical contradiction.