Guess who's agreed to debate me?

[Dog Town]

As much as I love all the ideas, for strategy, given to Gravy for this beat down! And a beat down it will be! Come On..." Guy's and Dolls", it's GRAVY!!!
Fetzer is gonna wail like a banshee, and then some. March is clear on my sched. I should be there. Would be glad to debate, or just put Korey's military training to the test, along w/the rest of the " Looser Than a Woman" crew!!

DT

 

[Bell]

As much as I love all the ideas, for strategy, given to Gravy for this beat down! And a beat down it will be! Come On..." Guy's and Dolls", it's GRAVY!!!
Fetzer is gonna wail like a banshee, and then some. March is clear on my sched. I should be there. Would be glad to debate, or just put Korey's military training to the test, along w/the rest of the " Looser Than a Woman" crew!!

DT

???

Just asking questions...

 

[Dog Town]

Just asking questions...

I hope that's what they try to do...that is hard. It's the F'ing accusations!

 

[Bell]

Gravy, any news on the debat with Bernas? It's due this month, I thought.

 

[MarkyX]

How much would that help the deniers fight, would be the question. The deniers will use such a legal action to further strenghten their 'case' "See? The gubmint is trying to silence us, we're on to something!!!!1!!!1!one!!"

Maybe ignoring the morrons is the best way for those public figures to deal with them?

Ah but they would need to PROVE their theories to be true in order to be found innocent. If anything, it would the death sentence of 9/11 Deniers.

This is why the movement will dare not approuch the proper channels. They need to keep their enemy "alive"

 

[Bell]

Ah but they would need to PROVE their theories to be true in order to be found innocent. If anything, it would the death sentence of 9/11 Deniers.

This is why the movement will dare not approuch the proper channels. They need to keep their enemy "alive"

Yeah... "We can proof it, but we have no proof."

btw, Mark, what prize did you win? Gravy did send you a prize, did he?

 

[ArmillarySphere]

Jay's been kinda quiet of late. I'm not sure if he's just taking a break or got tired of banging his head against a wall.

 

[alexi_drago]

On the subject of delayed flights and alternative plans, I have had some thoughts on the planning of the attack. I have no idea if any of this really makes any sense.

Were flights 77 and 93 really meant to reach their targets?

The planning of the first 2 planes to hit the WTC were timed so that after the first hit, the entire world was watching as the secong hit. This was an attack meticulously planned to shock the world.
Flight 93 takeoff was delayed by 40 minutes i think so it's role was messed up a bit anyway but 77 was only 10 minutes late (both were scheduled to take off within 10 minutes of each other), it's reckoned that flight 77 was over run by the terrorists within minutes of the first plane hitting the towers, possibly the latest they could do so with certainty that the crew wouldn't have recieved warnings and orders to land but late enough for action to be taken against them. Surely whoever planned this would take into account that after what had just happened at the WTC any other aircraft under terrorist control would be shot down as logically the lives on board were lost whatever happened but lives on the ground could be saved. The headings of the planes could give rise to speculation of the possible targets being millitary or government buildings so as the world watched events unfold that day they would see America shoot down 2 of it's own civilian aircraft in order to protect it's government and millitary interests.
One thing I feel adds a little to this is a video (I think JDX put it together) of a simulation of the last few minutes of flight 77 where it's pointing straight at the pentagon then turns almost in a full circle, there are comments during the video about the pilot not having a care in the world about the time taken for the maneuver and also about the lack of air defences, was the pilot deliberately taking more time and was whoever was in charge of air defences reluctant to take action against civilian aircraft?

This is just a thought with no proof or anything whatsoever and if anyone can give any reason why this couldn't be the case I have no problem with that.

EDIT: sorry, probably posted this in the wrong place.

 

[Gravy]

Gravy, any news on the debat with Bernas? It's due this month, I thought.

No, but I haven't pursued it. I will when I'm finished with the project I'm working on.

 

[Gravy]

On the subject of delayed flights and alternative plans, I have had some thoughts on the planning of the attack. I have no idea if any of this really makes any sense.

Were flights 77 and 93 really meant to reach their targets?

The planning of the first 2 planes to hit the WTC were timed so that after the first hit, the entire world was watching as the secong hit. This was an attack meticulously planned to shock the world.
Flight 93 takeoff was delayed by 40 minutes i think so it's role was messed up a bit anyway but 77 was only 10 minutes late (both were scheduled to take off within 10 minutes of each other), it's reckoned that flight 77 was over run by the terrorists within minutes of the first plane hitting the towers, possibly the latest they could do so with certainty that the crew wouldn't have recieved warnings and orders to land but late enough for action to be taken against them. Surely whoever planned this would take into account that after what had just happened at the WTC any other aircraft under terrorist control would be shot down as logically the lives on board were lost whatever happened but lives on the ground could be saved. The headings of the planes could give rise to speculation of the possible targets being millitary or government buildings so as the world watched events unfold that day they would see America shoot down 2 of it's own civilian aircraft in order to protect it's government and millitary interests.
One thing I feel adds a little to this is a video (I think JDX put it together) of a simulation of the last few minutes of flight 77 where it's pointing straight at the pentagon then turns almost in a full circle, there are comments during the video about the pilot not having a care in the world about the time taken for the maneuver and also about the lack of air defences, was the pilot deliberately taking more time and was whoever was in charge of air defences reluctant to take action against civilian aircraft?

This is just a thought with no proof or anything whatsoever and if anyone can give any reason why this couldn't be the case I have no problem with that.

EDIT: sorry, probably posted this in the wrong place.

Interesting ideas, Alexi, but I don't know that there's any evidence to support them. Why do you say that flights 11 and 175 were timed to strike when they did? To me that seems unlikely. If I were a terrorist I would ideally want those planes to reach the targets at the same time, for complete surprise. Even if NORAD had more warning and was able to shadow those two flights, they would not have shot them down if they hit the towers simultaneously. I'm guessing that the planes were hijacked when they were partly according to plan and partly according to the opportunity available.

As for Hanjour's big descending turn, this occured 3.5 miles from the Pentagon and appears to be because his initial approach was too high (eta: or because he believed it was too high), not because he was dawdling for fighters to arrive. The FAA's Flight 77 flight path analysis covers this subject: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc02.pdf I don't know why anyone would say that Hanjour didn't have a care in the world. He appeared to be taking great care to hit the Pentagon. The nearest fighters were many miles away at that time. And if they really wanted to be shot down they would have left their transponders on.

 

[alexi_drago]

I'm not really looking for anything to corroberate this, it was just something that struck me about the timing of events as flight 77 hit the pentagon about 50 minutes after the first tower was hit.
I see what you're saying about the turn though.

As for the planes hitting the towers, the effect that the first plane had was to have the world watching as the second plane hit which i think was deliberately planned.

 

[tsig]

On the subject of delayed flights and alternative plans, I have had some thoughts on the planning of the attack. I have no idea if any of this really makes any sense.

Were flights 77 and 93 really meant to reach their targets?

The planning of the first 2 planes to hit the WTC were timed so that after the first hit, the entire world was watching as the secong hit. This was an attack meticulously planned to shock the world.
Flight 93 takeoff was delayed by 40 minutes i think so it's role was messed up a bit anyway but 77 was only 10 minutes late (both were scheduled to take off within 10 minutes of each other), it's reckoned that flight 77 was over run by the terrorists within minutes of the first plane hitting the towers, possibly the latest they could do so with certainty that the crew wouldn't have recieved warnings and orders to land but late enough for action to be taken against them. Surely whoever planned this would take into account that after what had just happened at the WTC any other aircraft under terrorist control would be shot down as logically the lives on board were lost whatever happened but lives on the ground could be saved. The headings of the planes could give rise to speculation of the possible targets being millitary or government buildings so as the world watched events unfold that day they would see America shoot down 2 of it's own civilian aircraft in order to protect it's government and millitary interests.
One thing I feel adds a little to this is a video (I think JDX put it together) of a simulation of the last few minutes of flight 77 where it's pointing straight at the pentagon then turns almost in a full circle, there are comments during the video about the pilot not having a care in the world about the time taken for the maneuver and also about the lack of air defences, was the pilot deliberately taking more time and was whoever was in charge of air defences reluctant to take action against civilian aircraft?

This is just a thought with no proof or anything whatsoever and if anyone can give any reason why this couldn't be the case I have no problem with that.

EDIT: sorry, probably posted this in the wrong place.

jdx thanks for returning

there are no air defenses around the pentaon.

you sound awful young on the tape.

 

[LashL]

there are comments during the video about the pilot not having a care in the world about the time taken for the maneuver and also about the lack of air defences, was the pilot deliberately taking more time and was whoever was in charge of air defences reluctant to take action against civilian aircraft?

Those "comments" were added by the D'oh Boy and are ridiculous on their face. Flight data recorders do not read the minds of people in the cockpit, and the passage of time was, in reality, very short. That was just another example of the D'oh Boy's lame attempt to impose his own conspiracy world view upon what he pretends is a factual representation. It is not.

Others have already addressed your other points so I will leave it at that.

 

[Brainache]

Do we know that Al Qaeda planned to hijack 4 planes that day? Might they have been planning more, but were foiled by the grounding of all flights?

It wouldn't surprise me to learn of other hijackers on the west coast who's martyrdom didn't get off the ground that day.

 

[Muckar-duva]

I recall reading somewhere (very useful information, I know, but I really don't remember where) that boxcutters were found on other planes afterwards. No idea which planes, when, or anything else.

 

[Obviousman]

Jay's been kinda quiet of late. I'm not sure if he's just taking a break or got tired of banging his head against a wall.

Yeah, he's been busy. Rumour has it that it's due to the Orion project but that is nothing more than speculation (although quite possible).

I think that if he can spare the time, he'd be a valuable addition to the debate team. Apart from his excellent technical knowledge (primarily Apollo, but aeronautics and engineering as well), his debating skills will see every little flaw in the opposing teams arguements (and there are going to be lots of those) be brought to the harsh light of critical examination.

Edited to add: I suppose someone has contacted him about this?

 

[alexi_drago]

DHR says:

jdx thanks for returning

there are no air defenses around the pentaon.

you sound awful young on the tape.

Sorry, wrong guy. I'm not American but I'm assuming America has some aircraft that perform some sort of air defence.

 

[qarnos]

Sorry, wrong guy. I'm not American but I'm assuming America has some aircraft that perform some sort of air defence.

Back in those days air defence was mainly geared towards threats coming from outside the country.

 

[alexi_drago]

OK, so maybe mentioning the video there was a mistake and my thoughts on this didn't originate from that anyway but more from the sequence and timing that events occurred which I thought would be obvious to anyone reading my post.
As I said, I believe that the timing of the planes hitting the towers was planned so that the world watched live as the second plane hit. I find it difficult to accept that that was anything other than by design. I also think it's possible that the planners would have taken in to account the probability of aircraft (after the first 2 horrific events) under terrorist control being shot down before they reached their targets which although didn't happen may have been something more desirable to them (to very publicly force a country to shoot down it's own civilians).
It doesn't change much about who did what overall,only that it might have been unexpected by the planners for flight 77 to actually reach the pentagon and as I said before it's just a thought I had and I might be just as crazy as the CTers (hmmm, nukes/C4 coated rebar/holograms, well maybe not quite).

DHR, I'm not sure how you got to me being JDX, not once have I tried to claim the US government was involved or that the plane missed the pentagon.

 

[bjb]

Do we know that Al Qaeda planned to hijack 4 planes that day? Might they have been planning more, but were foiled by the grounding of all flights?

It wouldn't surprise me to learn of other hijackers on the west coast who's martyrdom didn't get off the ground that day.

Right after the attacks, I heard a story about some passengers waiting in an airport when the attacks occured. Everyone was watching the burning towers on the TV monitors in the airport and noticed a group of Middle Eastern-looking men who were also watching the monitors and arguing with each other. Some of the other travellers became suspicious and wanted the men to be investigated, but they got up and left before security could arrive.

I never heard anything about this story again. Personally, I have trouble believing it happened without seeing some sort of evidence and I'm only repeating it here for reference. There were many other crazy stories floating around at the time, like the airliner that was headed for Los Angeles. People were actually evacuated from downtown LA because of these rumors, and all across the country, malls, office buildngs, etc. were shut down because more attacks were feared.