Is there such a thing as a good chiropractor?

Wowbagger

The Infinitely Prolonged
Wowbagger
Joined
Feb 2, 2006
Messages
15,660
Location
Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Tonight, the Westchester PC User's Group ( www.WPCUG.org ) is scheduled to have a doctor speak about "chiropractic methods that help us regain control over our busy lives". (What this has to do with computers is beyond me, but anyways...)

I intend to be at this meeting, and I will carry along a couple of printouts from SkepDic.com and other sites with me, to bring to everyone's attention. I am mightily skeptical of such methods.

However, I also suspect that there might be chance that not all chiropractors, and their related methods, are as bad as the skeptical sources claim. So, the questions I would like to pose to this forum are thus: Is there such a thing as a good chiropractor? If so, how can we tell the difference?

Perhaps only those chiropractors whose practice is limited to treating physical spinal injury, where manipulation might be appropriate, are the good ones?

Are there any good chiropractic methods for treating stress symptoms, that can not be treated better any other way?

Also,
If there is even an ounce of real science in chiropractology, why haven't the good practitioners taken steps to disassociate themselves from the bad ones (much like astronomy disassociated itself from astrology)? Where's the sense of regulation?
For example, why are practitioners who reject germ theory allowed to practice under the name of "chiropractor", along with those that do accept germ theory?

Disclaimer: My own father, long ago, seems to have had a good experience with at least one chiropractor, although he has also had bad experiences with others. This is another reason I am bringing the subject up, like this.

I will invite the doctor who is speaking tonight to join us in this thread, as well as other attendees of the meeting, if they so wish to do so. We'll see what happens.
 
Feel free to print out and take the UK Skeptics chiropractic factsheet:

http://www.ukskeptics.com/factsheets/Chiropractic.pdf

That's what it's for, and is specifically written for non-skeptics (i.e. the general public).

A Chiropractor who does not practice/believe the woo side of it is called a Physical Therapist :D. In other words, if you are a Chiropractor, you practice Chiropractic, which is the theory of mystical energy flow being the root cause of all disease and illness. If you don't believe that, I fail to see how you can call yourself a Chiropractor, really, but I daresay there are such folk.

I wonder if the non-believing Chiropractors (if there are any) wash their hands after visiting the toilet though? The main issue with Chiropractic is that it rejects the germ theory of disease. Personally I wouldn't let anyone with that mentality come within two feet of me!
 
Incidentally, if you get chance, maybe you could ask the speaker if he thinks manipulating the spine of a newborn is healthy or even ethical:

chiro.png
 
tkingdoll said:
A Chiropractor who does not practice/believe the woo side of it is called a Physical Therapist :D. In other words, if you are a Chiropractor, you practice Chiropractic, which is the theory of mystical energy flow being the root cause of all disease and illness.
Click to expand...

Yes.

Wowbagger: In my limited experience there are no good chiropractors.
How can one be a 'good' medical professional, whilst embracing all the mystical codswollop? Medicine is a science, after all.
 
Well, the meeting ended, and I will convey some of what I learned.

First of all, I should probably have started this thread sooner. That U.K. print out tkingdoll mentioned would have been good. But, I threw together my own printout with some web sites on, including ChiroBase.com.

The Speaker
The speaker was Dr. Todd Herold, of Elmsford Chiropractic Health and Wellness Center, of Elmsford, NY. His site: www.elmsfordchiropractic.com

Highlights of The Presentation
I am not going to reiterate every point he made, here. These are just the general ideas I got from it:

The doctor talked mostly about stress, and barely even mentioned manipulation. Because of that, most of what he said seemed like generally well-known advice: Plant the "seeds" of happy thoughts, and you'll always feel fine! (Well, that's just great!)

He also made the point that drugs are being used to "cover up the alarms", rather than specifically attacking the problems. This, I thought was reasonable, at least for most of the over the counter stuff. He also stressed that if your life depends on a drug, you should still take it.

One of his slides made this analogy "The circuit breaker in your house is just like your spine!". Because, as nerves get pinched by the vertebrae, less power goes into your organs, in that area. Sounds reasonable, so far.

He claimed that the spinal column and spinal cord are not checked adequately by most physicians, even though it is the lifeline of the body, and most of its organs. He said that he had the right equipment for measuring the electrical impulses going through the spine.

I do not think he actually discussed treatments very much, though. So, it was more like a motivation speech than a hard sell for spinal manipulation.

After the Discussion
He did not offer a Q&A session. But, I talked with him after his speech. I did invite him to this thread on the forum, and he seemed excited to take part. I also handed him a couple of printouts: My short list of sites, and SkepDic's entry ( www.SkepDic.com/chiro.html ) (I did not have the U.K. one, at the time).

HERE IS WHERE IT GETS SCARY!

In my discussion with him, Dr. Herold claimed that germ theory was erroneous. He stated that he does not believe germs can make you sick. He believes in a "Strong Host" theory: That as long as the host is strong, no germs can harm it. (This seemed to be just a modified germ theory, though.) But he also said this: "If germ theory was correct, wouldn't everyone get sick all the time?"

I warned him that a lot of folks would say that is a very wacky way of thinking. We'll see what else he has to say on that though, if he does join us.

I should have asked him about child and infant manipulations, but I forgot. So, I'll ask him, when and if he gets here.

Also Worth Mentioning
One particular lady, who attended the meeting, but was not affiliated with any chiropractors, stated that she would allow chiropractors to give her diagnostic tests, but she would not allow them to do any adjustments, since they could be dangerous. She actually has a particular genetic infliction on her spine, that needs to be monitored, every so often. Does this approach sound reasonable to anyone else?

It also raises the issue: What, exactly, is bad about chiropractic: Is it only the manipulations? Is there any good use for their diagnostic equipment and methods?

I intend to find out! (Not that I need it myself.)
 
I hope he joins us. I would love for him to examine this MRI and talk about how he thinks that cancer formed, and what the treatment should be.

As usual, I agree with Tkingdoll's assessment that if you are not practicing chiropractic (the nonsense about mystical energies etc etc) then you are a physical therapist.


ETA:

What diagnostic equipment are they talking about? Anyone have a link?

Also, check quackwatch. What you ask about whether manipulations can be answered there. even in healthy people neck manipulation can cause stroke. Check my link above, and ask if a spinal manipulation would be a good idea then.
 
Wowbagger said:
He also made the point that drugs are being used to "cover up the alarms", rather than specifically attacking the problems. This, I thought was reasonable, at least for most of the over the counter stuff. He also stressed that if your life depends on a drug, you should still take it.

One of his slides made this analogy "The circuit breaker in your house is just like your spine!". Because, as nerves get pinched by the vertebrae, less power goes into your organs, in that area. Sounds reasonable, so far.
Click to expand...

I thought I'd comment on these two points. They sound reasonable unless you have an understanding of certain things.

First I'll just address the second point, because it's actually something I know a tiny little bit about. The analogy is flawed because our spinal cord and nerve signals are not power lines. They are information lines. It is more akin to your ethernet cable being snipped. How he can say the organs "get less power" is beyond me. While we are like robots, we aren't robots. There are some differences, and one of them is that we don't run on electricity. We just use it, and chemical communication, as data transfer. For that matter, either certain parts are recieving the signal, or they aren't. If you download a file and pinch your cable, either the connection is going to drop outright or it'll keep going just fine. There's no way the data can somehow be reconstructed into something as developed as the various forms of disease humans get all the time. A cut off internet connection doesn't change the JREF site into an astrology site. It gives you a 404 error.

The second one is the standard canard, and while it would take an actual doctor to really say anything of great detail on it, I can at least say that my understanding is that the symptoms ARE the disease. If you are feeling fine, in what way can you say you are sick? Of course there's the issue of something that doesn't manifest itself for years but again it's that future manifestation that's the issue, not just that it's there doing nothing at the moment, which leads people to need to do something about it.
 
Dark Jaguar said:
I thought I'd comment on these two points. They sound reasonable unless you have an understanding of certain things.

First I'll just address the second point, because it's actually something I know a tiny little bit about. The analogy is flawed because our spinal cord and nerve signals are not power lines. They are information lines. It is more akin to your ethernet cable being snipped. How he can say the organs "get less power" is beyond me. While we are like robots, we aren't robots. There are some differences, and one of them is that we don't run on electricity. We just use it, and chemical communication, as data transfer. For that matter, either certain parts are recieving the signal, or they aren't. If you download a file and pinch your cable, either the connection is going to drop outright or it'll keep going just fine. There's no way the data can somehow be reconstructed into something as developed as the various forms of disease humans get all the time. A cut off internet connection doesn't change the JREF site into an astrology site. It gives you a 404 error.

The second one is the standard canard, and while it would take an actual doctor to really say anything of great detail on it, I can at least say that my understanding is that the symptoms ARE the disease. If you are feeling fine, in what way can you say you are sick? Of course there's the issue of something that doesn't manifest itself for years but again it's that future manifestation that's the issue, not just that it's there doing nothing at the moment, which leads people to need to do something about it.
Click to expand...



I really like the ethernet analogy. That's good stuff Jag, thanks.


But to be precise, some drugs do very much address "the disease" like antibiotics, whih do attack the infection - or better yet: Revlimid and Velcadse which actually work to kill cancer cells and shrink tumors in Multiple Myeloma. His sweeping statement is false for a few reasons, but your is the most succinct. But you're right, he is attributing some other reason for the myeloma (in that example) when the tumors *are* the disease. There is not much you can do to stop the genetic predisposition to certain cancers, nor can chiropractics treat it in any way.
 
Thanks for clearing up that stuff. To be honest it is such a vague "all natural" sort of claim it's hard to counter with a vague comeback. It's basically a LOT of claims wrapped up into one statement.

I'll add to that. If the nerves to your heart are pinched off, you won't develop a highly complicated and odd heart disorder. Your heart will just revert to the "default" pacemaker rate, and well, you'll probably die without treatment because that's pretty low. I base this on my very small knowledge of the heart's pacemaker and how it operates. If a few nerves in your face are pinched, the muscle they go to just go slack altogether. If they are slightly pinched so sometimes there's a signal and sometimes there isn't one, you will get, just like if you have a dying battery in your remote while changing channels, a "twitch" as the signals get through sometimes and sometimes don't.

In the world of data transfer, there's nothing as absolute as a cutoff.
 
Last edited:
Wowbagger said:
Is there such a thing as a good chiropractor? If so, how can we tell the difference?
Click to expand...
There are a small number of ethical chiropractors who practice evidence-based manual therapy limited to neuromusculoskeletal disorders, but finding one is like trying to find a needle in a haystack as you have to have quite an in-depth understanding of chiropractic in order to know what to look for. Unfortunately, most people don’t know very much about chiropractic and, as a consequence, they end up trusting the grossly misleading information produced by the profession and thus become ensnared in its quackery.

Regards how to distinguish between a good chiropractor and a bad one, this is a reasonably good guide:
Appropriate chiropractic practice

Choosing a chiropractor can be difficult because, according to several large surveys the many of chiropractors are involved in unscientific practices . If you decide to consult one, start with a telephone interview in which you explore the chiropractor's attitudes and practice methods [2].

Good signs

Practice limited to conservative treatment of back pain and other musculoskeletal problems.

Recommendation from your medical doctor.

Membership in the National Association for Chiropractic Medicine or the Canadian Academy of Manipulative Therapists (CAMT); however, the number of chiropractors who belong to these groups is small. CAMT's "orthopractic guidelines" describe a science-based approach to manipulative therapy.

In addition to manual manipulation or stretching of tight muscles or joints, science-based chiropractors commonly use heat or ice packs, ultrasound treatment (not diagnosis), and other modalities similar to those of physical therapists. They may also recommend a home exercise program.

For most conditions that chiropractic care can help, significant improvement should occur within a few visits.

Avoid Chiropractors

Advertising about "danger signals indicating the need for chiropractic care

Making claims about curing diseases

Trying to get patients to sign contracts for lengthy treatment, promote regular "preventive" adjustments

Using scare tactics

Disparaging scientific medical treatment or preventive measures such as immunization or fluoridation

Who claim to diagnose or treat "subluxations," or who have literature promoting "nerve interference" as an underlying cause of disease

Who suggest that chiropractic might help nearly every type of health problem

Routinely performing or ordering x-ray examinations of all patients, particularly full spine X rays

Avoid chiropractors who "prescribe" dietary supplements, homeopathic products, or herbal products for the treatment of disease or who sell any of these products in their offices. For dietary advice, the best sources are physicians and registered dietitians.

Who offer any of the listed "Useless (for the patient) gadgets and tests". In addition other dubious tests and/ or procedures include:
o body fat analysis
o computerized "nutrient deficiency" testing
o computerized range-of-motion analysis
o cytotoxic testing, electrodermal testing
o Functional Intracellular Analysis (FIA)
o herbal crystallization analysis
o blood cell analysis (also called nutritional blood analysis or Hemaview)
o testing with a Nervo-Scope
o Nutrabalance, NUTRI-SPEC
o pendulum divination
o reflexology
o saliva testing

http://your-doctor.com/patient_info/alternative_remedies/various_therapy/chiropractic.html
Click to expand...

There were three JREF threads which recently looked at chiropractic’s problems, especially in the UK. They might also be of some help to you:

Chiropracty?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58682

Help rebutting chiropracty
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63056

Chiropractic for children UGH
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64283

One of his slides made this analogy "The circuit breaker in your house is just like your spine!". Because, as nerves get pinched by the vertebrae, less power goes into your organs, in that area. Sounds reasonable, so far.
Click to expand...
The “nerves get pinched by vertebrae” theory was debunked by the Crelin study in 1973:
http://www.chirobase.org/02Research/crelin.html

In my discussion with him, Dr. Herold claimed that germ theory was erroneous. He stated that he does not believe germs can make you sick. He believes in a "Strong Host" theory: That as long as the host is strong, no germs can harm it. (This seemed to be just a modified germ theory, though.) But he also said this: "If germ theory was correct, wouldn't everyone get sick all the time?"
Click to expand...
It’s unlikely that chiropractic does anything to enhance a “Strong Host”. In a recent survey examining the longevity of chiropractors vs. general population vs. MDs the lifespans of chiropractors turned out to be the lowest of the three groups:
http://www.jcca-online.org/client/cca/JCCA.nsf/objects/V48-3-P217-224/$file/V48-3-P217-224.pdf

For those who would like to learn more about chiropractic, this is a great further reading resource:
http://chirotalk.proboards3.com/

(ETA: The longevity survey link works if you copy and paste it.)
 
Last edited:
Is there such a thing as a good chiropractor?

..... A dead chiropractor?

Hans
 
Regarding diagnostic methods, Chiropractors use x-rays. And use them, and use them. Thereby exposing their patients to needless levels of radiation.

But yes, the most alarming aspect is the rejection of germ theory. Don't accept a dinner invite from a Chiropractor :D

Penn & Teller's Bulls*** episode on Chiropractors sums them up thusly:

Baby-twisting motherf*****s
 
Thanks, everyone, for the informative comments so far! I also liked the Ethernet analogy. And I like those "Good Signs and Bad Signs" Blue Wode offered.

No word, yet, if the speaker has entered this thread. But, I will certainly bring it to the attention of some of the attendees.

I know someone who was injured in a car accident in 1997, and swears that chiropractors were essential to bouncing back into life again. And, he is a generally skeptical person. Won't he be surprised to read all this!
 
Wowbagger said:
I know someone who was injured in a car accident in 1997, and swears that chiropractors were essential to bouncing back into life again. And, he is a generally skeptical person. Won't he be surprised to read all this!
Click to expand...

Hey, if they helped, they helped, even if it was all placebo. I think everyone should go ahead and do whatever makes them happy, but I would also hope that people would do their homework first and make an informed choice. Fine, you pick the Chiropractor anyway, but you're going in with your eyes open and perhaps less chance of paying for something that could at best cheer you up and at worst kill you.

My sentiment is, most folk don't know what Chiropractic is, so I make the information available, let them know it's there, and if they choose not to accept it, or choose to ignore it, that's as far as I can go.

Of course, I have been tempted to say "I told you so" on a few occasions (when friends have ended up in A & E or surgery after wasting time on Chiropractors until their real problem was extremely bad) but really it doesn't need saying.
 
Dark Jaguar said:
(leading paragraph snipped)

The second one is the standard canard, and while it would take an actual doctor to really say anything of great detail on it, I can at least say that my understanding is that the symptoms ARE the disease. If you are feeling fine, in what way can you say you are sick? Of course there's the issue of something that doesn't manifest itself for years but again it's that future manifestation that's the issue, not just that it's there doing nothing at the moment, which leads people to need to do something about it.
Click to expand...
I disagree about the symptoms being the same as the disease. I have type 1 diabetes. As long as I take my insulin I'm symptom-free: my blood sugar level is normal or slightly elevated. But the underlying medical condition (the disease) is there always.

Of course, one could argue that I have a "condition" and not a "disease", especially if you confine disease to a foreign agent attacking the body: bacteria, virus, or cancer. But even then, the disease is the foreign agent; the symptoms are evidence of your body's defences either ramping up to fight it (eg, fever) or failing (organ and tissue damage).
 
Would anybody here like to comment on the phenomena of long term chiropractic care?

I know of a few examples in my own extended family. One of the participants I don't know very well, the other tends toward woo type beliefs. These people and others that I have listened to seem to develop a sense that the chiropractic visits are an important part of alleviating symptoms of back pain or other pains in their lives.

What is the nature of this interaction between the chiropractor and these kind of patients. Is the chiropractor really delivering treatments that migtigate pain? Is the personal interaction of getting a massage from a trusted individual really the most important aspect of what is going on? Would a visit to a similarly skilled physical therapist have a similar result? Is the woo nature of the treatment (meaning making non-scientific jargon and conversation part of the chiropractor/patient interaction) part of the appeal for these people?
 
davefoc said:
Would anybody here like to comment on the phenomena of long term chiropractic care?

I know of a few examples in my own extended family. One of the participants I don't know very well, the other tends toward woo type beliefs. These people and others that I have listened to seem to develop a sense that the chiropractic visits are an important part of alleviating symptoms of back pain or other pains in their lives.
Click to expand...

When I was younger, I spent quite a lot of time seeing chiropractors (mainly due to having been involved in multiple car accidents -- as a passenger, not a driver :D ), and there was never anything that any of them did for me that was worthwhile, that I would not have been better off seeing an actual physical therapist for. If i had seen a real physical therapist, it's likely that my back and neck would not be as completely buggered up as they are now.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom