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Some questions for Dawkins

It is empirical that a reduction in the complexity of the brain reduces intellectual capacity. The greater the reduction in complexity the greater reduction in intellectual capacity. The correlation is direct. We even know which centers of the brain are responsible for various functions and therefore can target how to reduce capacity.

I'm a former dualist and this was always my most difficult argument to overcome. I never could. It was this reason I ceased being a dualist.

You will have a very hard time convincing neuroscientists that their work is mythology.
This has not been demonstrated, empirically or otherwise. You might be thinking of the hypothesized link between brain size and intelligence. Even this is under question now.
One prominent neuroscientist who agrees with me is Raymond Tallis, author of "Why the Mind is Not a Computer: A Pocket Lexicon of Neuromythology".

I am not a dualist, if by this you refer to a mind-body duality. At least, I dont think I am.
 
This has not been demonstrated, empirically or otherwise. You might be thinking of the hypothesized link between brain size and intelligence.
No, I'm thinking of brain damage and loss of capacity. There are literally hundreds of thousands of such examples. You have heard of Brain damage? Are you familiar with Alzheimer's, hypoxia, stroke? I have a friend who had a stroke and there are many activities the two of us can no longer do. His mental capacities are simply not the same. I'm sure you have heard that physical damage to the brain can render someone with a much lower mental capacity?

One prominent neuroscientists who agrees with me is Raymond Tallis, author of "Why the Mind is Not a Computer: A Pocket Lexicon of Neuromythology".
My history in this area goes back more than 20 years. I was at first a hardcore AI enthusiast. After years of disappointment and research I gave up on it. I read Searle's Minds, Brains and Science and John Hogan's The Undiscovered Mind and many others. I came to the JREF 5 years ago to make my case that the brain is not simply a computer and explain why the Hard Problem of Consciousness was a real and fundamental problem that could only be solved by a mind that was not simply a computer made of meat.

My arguments, I thought, were good. I used the Chinese room and a number of my own creative devices but in the end I realized that the arguments did not suffice. While I'm very intrigued by HPC and arguments like the Chinese Room I realize that these are simply gaps of human understanding. These are not theories or answers to anything. Since the dawn of enlightenment humans have had gaps in their understanding of the natural world and they have been filling those gaps with all sorts of ideas, many metaphysical. The gaps have been shrinking. There's not much left anymore. The "mind" is one of the last great discoveries. I don't doubt that we will solve it.

I am not a dualist, if by this you refer to a mind-body duality. At least, I don't think I am.
There are not a lot of options. There's Materialism, Dualism, Pluralism, Monism.

You tell me.
 
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Say T'ai, if you're too busy to manage it I wouldn't mind posting your questions from the OP over on the Richard Dawkins' forum for you...

Steven
 
No, I'm thinking of brain damage and loss of capacity. There are literally hundreds of thousands of such examples. You have heard of Brain damage? Are you familiar with Alzheimer's, hypoxia, stroke? I have a friend who had a stroke and there are many activities the two of us can no longer do. His mental capacities are simply not the same. I'm sure you have heard that physical damage to the brain can render someone with a much lower mental capacity?

My history in this area goes back more than 20 years. I was at first a hardcore AI enthusiast. After years of disappointment and research I gave up on it. I read Searle's Minds, Brains and Science and John Hogan's The Undiscovered Mind and many others. I came to the JREF 5 years ago to make my case that the brain is not simply a computer and explain why the Hard Problem of Consciousness was a real and fundamental problem that could only be solved by a mind that was not simply a computer made of meat.

My arguments, I thought, were good. I used the Chinese room and a number of my own creative devices but in the end I realized that the arguments did not suffice. While I'm very intrigued by HPC and arguments like the Chinese Room I realize that these are simply gaps of human understanding. These are not theories or answers to anything. Since the dawn of enlightenment humans have had gaps in their understanding of the natural world and they have been filling those gaps with all sorts of ideas, many metaphysical. The gaps have been shrinking. There's not much left anymore. The "mind" is one of the last great discoveries. I don't doubt that we will solve it.

There are not a lot of options. There's Materialism, Dualism, Pluralism, Monism.

You tell me.
Brain damage causes a loss of function, even to the point of death. At no point does it render a human being a non-subject or a non-person, until that person dies. A person might not be able even to speak or to move or to blink intentionally while in a coma, but those who emerge sometimes report that they were fully awake and fully aware - of conversations that occurred, for example. There is no empirical way to determine this circumstance, but even if it were it would simply mean that there are discernible differences in the brain between someone who is awake in this way. The brain is a "sine qua non" of human functioning, it is by no means a complete explanation for what a human being is or does.

Yes, I have been thinking about and pursuing the HPC for as many years. I am convinced that consciousness is irreducible to material causes.

First off, the materialist explanation for human intellection is a reduction ad absurdum: it is "the thought that ends all thought". If our thoughts are the result of material forces, then thought is meaningless and the very idea of truth is illusory. If my personal acceptance of the apparent truth of "modus ponens" reasoning, for example, is due to the fact that one protein fits another in a certain way... then the whole enterprise of logic is simply stupid and illusory. If our thoughts are a mechanical process, then they are no more true than marbles rolling down a hill.

The argument of the reducing gap is a fallacy. For some beautiful prose about how tempting and how wrong this fallacy is, check out the first paragraph of Chesterton's <A href="http://[url="http://www.leaderu.com/cyber/books/orthodoxy/ch6.html" target=_blank>Orthodoxy Chapter six here[/url].

There are arguments for and against everything and anything. The arguments against materialist reductionism are overwhelming. The arguments in favour are weak. MR amounts to a "presumed working hypothesis".

By dualism, I thought you were referring to the human person, not to theories about the possible ways of being. I do not think I am a strict dualist about human beings, because I believe in the fundamental unity, "oneness", of a human being.
 
Chesterton's [url="http://www.leaderu.com/cyber/books/orthodoxy/ch6.html" target]Orthodoxy Chapter six, here[/url]

Sorry... apparently previewing a post with url in it messes it up?
 
Brain damage causes a loss of function, even to the point of death. At no point does it render a human being a non-subject or a non-person, until that person dies.
I never claimed it did. I only claimed that it was clear that reduction in complexity was directly linked to loss in capacity. This is clear and overwhelming. It also can lead to fundamental changes in personality. See Phineas Gage.

A person might not be able even to speak or to move or to blink intentionally while in a coma, but those who emerge sometimes report that they were fully awake and fully aware - of conversations that occurred, for example.
But many, many patients recover and or fully awake from brain damage with permanent reduction in capacity.

There is no empirical way to determine this circumstance, but even if it were it would simply mean that there are discernible differences in the brain between someone who is awake in this way. The brain is a "sine qua non" of human functioning, it is by no means a complete explanation for what a human being is or does.
It is the only mechanism and theory we have for human behavior, capacity and function.

Yes, I have been thinking about and pursuing the HPC for as many years. I am convinced that consciousness is irreducible to material causes.
What convinces you? To date we only have ignorance as an answer. That is not meant as a sleight it's just that Neuroscience continues to close the gaps and HPC continues to tell us nothing. HPC is arguing from ignorance.

First off, the materialist explanation for human intellection is a reduction ad absurdum: it is "the thought that ends all thought". If our thoughts are the result of material forces, then thought is meaningless and the very idea of truth is illusory.
"Meaningless"? Meaning is a human construct. A thing or concept means what we want it to mean. Your argument is fallacy.

If my personal acceptance of the apparent truth of "modus ponens" reasoning, for example, is due to the fact that one protein fits another in a certain way... then the whole enterprise of logic is simply stupid and illusory. If our thoughts are a mechanical process, then they are no more true than marbles rolling down a hill.
Yes, it may very well all be illusory. So what? For what it's worth I always used the example of a river ruining down stream. I've been bitten by that dog and even used it to bite myself. It's still not a valid argument.

I've got to go eat. I'll get to the rest of your argument. In a moment.
 
There are arguments for and against everything and anything. The arguments against materialist reductionism are overwhelming. The arguments in favour are weak. MR amounts to a "presumed working hypothesis".
I don't know what that last sentence means? As to the rest I can only say that you are making assertions without supporting evidence. I can tell you that the consensus among scientists is in direct opposition to your assertion.

I do not think I am a strict dualist about human beings, because I believe in the fundamental unity, "oneness", of a human being.
I think you need to work through your understanding some. Materialism holds that there are only physical (material) things. If you believe that there is a mind that is in someway different, apart of or separate from the brain then you have a problem. It doesn't make any difference how much "oneness" you ascribe to the brain and mind. You first need to tell us what exactly the part of this oneness that does not include the brain is? We can go from there. Is the mind a combination of brain and something else? If so what is that something? Is this where you one would expect to find the soul (homonculus)?
 
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For some beautiful prose about how tempting and how wrong this fallacy is, check out the first paragraph of Chesterton's Orthodoxy Chapter six, here
I'm not really interested in beautiful prose. That is just rhetoric, sophistry. I'm only interested in logic. If there is something in your link that you feel is compelling could you post a quote? I don't have the time to read lot's of text without knowing what exactly it is supposed to prove.

Thanks,

RandFan
 
RandFan, please tell me: does materialism hold that our thoughts and actions are the result of chemical processes in the brain?
 
stillthinkin said:
For some beautiful prose about how tempting and how wrong this fallacy is, check out the first paragraph of Chesterton's Orthodoxy Chapter six.
I'm not really interested in beautiful prose. That is just rhetoric, sophistry. I'm only interested in logic. If there is something in your link that you feel is compelling could you post a quote? I don't have the time to read lot's of text without knowing what exactly it is supposed to prove.
It is beautiful prose which is about how wrong the fallacy of "ever reducing gap" is. If you are interested in logic, read it. It is very logical too. If it is also beautifully written, I apologize for that. Are the chemicals in my brain that respond to beauty any less valid than the chemicals in my brain that respond to logic?
 
RandFan, please tell me: does materialism hold that our thoughts and actions are the result of chemical processes in the brain?
I think the correct term is electrochemical.

ETA: In case I wasn't clear the answer was yes.

And please understand I spent my first 2 or 3 years hear arguing against the idea which seemed rather counter intuitive to me.
 
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It is beautiful prose which is about how wrong the fallacy of "ever reducing gap" is. If you are interested in logic, read it. It is very logical too. If it is also beautifully written, I apologize for that. Are the chemicals in my brain that respond to beauty any less valid than the chemicals in my brain that respond to logic?
I have a serious pet peeve about arguing via link. I would prefer you demonstrate why you think this is significant. Is there anything in the link that stands out to you? Anything that is compelling? I hope you don't take it personal but I've always felt that if someone can't distill a page into a cogent thought or at least find a significant and comprehensive quote then the person who posted the link likely doesn't even fully understand the significance of the information and I'm likely to waste my time.

I don't always post data from a link but then I don't expect anyone to read the link. It is there for supporting purposes. If I want a person to understand something from a link I always quote from the link or outline it. Always.

If I find what you post is interesting or compelling I will read the rest of the article.

That's been my rule for my 5 years here. It's served me well. I beg your forgiveness but that's just the way it is going to be.
 
stillthinkin said:
If my personal acceptance of the apparent truth of "modus ponens" reasoning, for example, is due to the fact that one protein fits another in a certain way... then the whole enterprise of logic is simply stupid and illusory. If our thoughts are a mechanical process, then they are no more true than marbles rolling down a hill.
Yes, it may very well all be illusory. So what? For what it's worth I always used the example of a river ruining down stream. I've been bitten by that dog and even used it to bite myself. It's still not a valid argument.
Not may be illusory. Is illusory. You claim you are interested in logic, but if materialism is true then there is no such thing as logic. The thought that ends all thought...

Wow, that is some beautiful prose there... rivers and dogs n' stuff...
 
I have a serious pet peeve about arguing via link. I would prefer you demonstrate why you think this is significant. Is there anything in the link that stands out to you? Anything that is compelling? I hope you don't take it personal but I've always felt that if someone can't distill a page into a cogent thought or at least find a significant and comprehensive quote then the person who posted the link likely doesn't even fully understand the significance of the information and I'm likely to waste my time.

I don't always post data from a link but then I don't expect anyone to read the link. It is there for supporting purposes. If I want a person to understand something from a link I always quote from the link or outline it. Always.

If I find what you post is interesting or compelling I will read the rest of the article.

That's been my rule for my 5 years here. It's served me well. I beg your forgiveness but that's just the way it is going to be.
Do you agree that a "reducing gap" is not a valid logical argument?

I suggested reading the first paragraph, I was going to post it but I am not sure what the etiquette dictates. I agree, "arguing by link" is not of much value, that is not what I am trying to do. Perhaps what I am trying to do is inappropriate anyways. This isnt data, it is one paragraph of argument. What stands out to me is the argument. I believe arguments can be elegant, even beautiful. I attended a lecture by the famous astronomer Chandrashekar; the entire presentation was about how beautiful Newton's Principia Mathematica is.
 
I think the correct term is electrochemical.

ETA: In case I wasn't clear the answer was yes.

And please understand I spent my first 2 or 3 years hear arguing against the idea which seemed rather counter intuitive to me.
Ah the electrochemistry of your brain changed for some reason. Both views are illusory then.
 
Wow, that is some beautiful prose there... rivers and dogs n' stuff...
I'm not against prose I'm just not interested in reading something simply because of the prose.

I think we need a new thread. I hope you don't mind.
 
If you are interested in logic, read it. It is very logical too.
I did not find it to be so.

For example:
Now, this is exactly the claim which I have since come to propound for Christianity. Not merely that it deduces logical truths, but that when it suddenly becomes illogical, it has found, so to speak, an illogical truth. It not only goes right about things, but it goes wrong (if one may say so) exactly where the things go wrong.
A friend of mine refers to that sort of reasoning as "hammer to fit, paint to match".


If it is also beautifully written, I apologize for that. Are the chemicals in my brain that respond to beauty any less valid than the chemicals in my brain that respond to logic?
On the whole, no. But in a matter of logic beauty does not add any weight to the outcome. We may find the answers revealed by logic to be beautiful, but beauty does make truth.
 

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