Myth Pro and Con about the Minimum Wage

slingblade said:
...The residents work the jobs at minimum wage because they can't afford to leave town yet, and can't afford not to work. As soon as they can afford to leave, they do, ...

but their places are just filled by newcomers who will also work for minimum as it's the only wage paid, and they, too, have to have a job or two.
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Gee, you'd think the ones leaving would tell those that are coming to not bother.

Seems to blow your whole theory Slingblade...not that it wasn't blown well before.
 
Ace_of_Sevens said:
You're assumign some sort of monopolistic cooperation among employers. Some employees, even unskilled ones, are better than others. One employer will raise wages to get the better unskilled workers. Also, they're competing against the societal safety net. Someone who pays too little will find the jobs they have impossible to fill.
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You're assuming, I think, that this is a hypothetical place. It isn't, I assure you. There is no industry there, save for the tourist industry. The employers are limited to the state (it's the county seat) and bars, restaurants, hotels, and gift shops. Each of those is owned by an individual.

There is no reason for any business owner to raise his wages above $5.15 ($2.24 for tipped employees) to get better unskilled workers. There are always a certain number of them. Who they are changes constantly, but slowly.

There's no competition for them. There's no real shortage of them, and one isn't necessarily any better than the other in the eyes of most of these employers. They keep it pretty simple actually: they think we're all scum. Easy enough.

In the rare event your employer in this town does value you, he may pay you a little more, sure. But there is no way to advance in any job in this town. There are few manager's positions; the owners manage their own places. If you want to be anything besides a bartender, a waitress, or a cashier, you're going to have to leave town sooner or later. And sooner or later you'll be replaced by someone a lot like you, but younger, who will work for the same minimum wage.

My husband went back there for a visit in the spring. We used to know over 400 people there, low estimate, when we lived there 8 years ago. He could only find a couple of guys he knew there now.

Everyone else moved on. A whole bunch of new people moved in. The going wage is still $5.15/$2.24.
 
Jeez, I can't refute Slingblades argument against raising MW any better than has Slingblade. She makes a great argument for lowering it or getting rid of it all together. Of course, she doesn't get that.
 
The Atheist said:
I know precisely what the term means. If it doesn't apply to you, feel free to correct me.
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Consider yourself corrected.
I see you didn't dispute the "redneck" at least.
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Mrs. BPSCG heard and enjoyed Midori playing the Brahms violin concerto with the Alexandria Symphony last night. I was surprised how thin her sound was, especially in the first couple of minutes after her entrance, since it's an erupting, passionate volcano of music (the late David Oistrakh, on an old Heliodor vinyl recording I once had, set the standard for me for that entrance). I think she soon figured out that she wasn't projecting, and after spending the first couple of minutes being swamped by the orchestra, held her own thereafter. Lovely tone, spot-on intonation throughout the first movement, in a slow, but passionate and loving performance. The contrast between the sturm und drang of most of the movement, and the lyrical repose after the cadenza, was striking and touching.

During the intermission, she stood out in the lobby of the concert hall, mising with the concertgoers. I got an opportunity to personally thank her; I've loved that piece for almost 40 years, yet had never heard it performed live before. She's a tiny woman, barely over five feet tall in heels, and I guarantee she doesn't weigh 100 pounds. Really says something good about her that an international concert star of her stature doesn't jet off back to Paris or Tokyo the minute her part of the concert is done.

After the intermission, the orchestra performed Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. Uneven performance, IMHO; while competently executed, the piece lost a good deal of its drama and passion in the outer movements due to excessively fast tempos, similar to the critcism I had of a May performance we attended of the same piece by the Delaware Symphony Orchestra. The conductor, Kim Allen Kluge, omitted the first repeat in the second movement scherzo. Of the soloists in the last movement, the baritone was light-voiced and had a little trouble with the bottom part of the register. The tenor had a true heldentenor voice, actually singing his solo, rather than barking it, as some tenors do. The alto didn't have enough voice to stay with the rest of the quartet, and when she and the soprano sang together, she tended to get swamped. Very good choral singing.

Mrs. BPSCG and I, rednecks that we are, very much enjoyed sitting there at the concert in our bowling shirt and tank top, chewing and spitting tobacco and popping a couple of cold PBR's between movements. Yee haw!
 
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slingblade said:
Okay, let me think about this some more. I think I'm understanding what you're saying, and I'm getting dangerously close to changing my mind.

(...snip...)

Give me some time to do my own research and give this more thought. Some of my opinions are changing (yes, it hurts :p ), but I'm not sure all of them are.

I still worry that removing the minimum wage would do some damage to real people in real time. I worry that not raising it is hurting people now who are doing the best they can. And I realize we're all looking at one aspect of a multi-faceted issue.

But some of what you've said really has me thinking and re-thinking.

Thanks.
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Slingblade, you constantly surprise and baffle me. We all know here that you've had - and apparently still have - things pretty tough, economically.

Yet, you consistently strike me as one of the most thoughtful, intelligent, open-to-reason people here (the fact that you write surpassingly well doesn't hurt in my reaching that conclusion).

I'm trying to reconcile the two and I just can't get there. Best explanation I can come up with is that you live in the middle of the Arizona desert and the only job within 25 miles is pumping gas at the Last Chance Before Death Valley gas station.

:confused:
 
BPSCG said:
Slingblade, you constantly surprise and baffle me. We all know here that you've had - and apparently still have - things pretty tough, economically.

Yet, you consistently strike me as one of the most thoughtful, intelligent, open-to-reason people here (the fact that you write surpassingly well doesn't hurt in my reaching that conclusion).

I'm trying to reconcile the two and I just can't get there. Best explanation I can come up with is that you live in the middle of the Arizona desert and the only job within 25 miles is pumping gas at the Last Chance Before Death Valley gas station.

:confused:
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Indeed, baring anything totally unexpected I'm fairly convinced that she could easily get an office job squarely in the middle income range even without prior experience if she so chose. I know that were she ACTUALLY in Arizona I would certainly recommend hiring her to my firm.

Aaron
 
BPSCG said:
Mrs. BPSCG heard and enjoyed Midori playing the Brahms violin concerto with the Alexandria Symphony last night.
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You lucky dog! --- too bad the 9th didn't come off well. Actually, it sounds like a bit of a mis-match; the 9th being so long should have been paired with 2 shorter works instead of another lengthy one, such as is the Brahms. But, hey -- still a great evening of music.

And, BTW, anyone at all going to take a nibble at this?
 
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Just thinking said:
You lucky dog! --- too bad the 9th didn't come off well. Actually, it sounds like a bit of a mis-match; the 9th being so long should have been paired with 2 shorter works instead of another lengthy one, such as is the Brahms. But, hey -- still a great evening of music.

And, BTW, anyone at all going to take a nibble at this?
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Sure, you may not like it however...

What other people make has no bearing on what you make. Simply because the law forces a raise for some folks doesn't mean other folks deserve to be paid more.

This is one time I'm going with Jesus! Mathew 20:1-15 http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew20.htm

Sorry, had to do it. I really do agree with him in this point.

Aaron
 
HeavyAaron said:
Sure, you may not like it however...

What other people make has no bearing on what you make. Simply because the law forces a raise for some folks doesn't mean other folks deserve to be paid more.

This is one time I'm going with Jesus! Mathew 20:1-15 http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew20.htm

Sorry, had to do it. I really do agree with him in this point.

Aaron
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Who's to say I disagree, or wouldn't like it? I was merely interested in seeing how some may approach the issue, as I'm sure it comes up now and again.
 
BPSCG said:
Slingblade, you constantly surprise and baffle me. We all know here that you've had - and apparently still have - things pretty tough, economically.

Yet, you consistently strike me as one of the most thoughtful, intelligent, open-to-reason people here (the fact that you write surpassingly well doesn't hurt in my reaching that conclusion).

I'm trying to reconcile the two and I just can't get there. Best explanation I can come up with is that you live in the middle of the Arizona desert and the only job within 25 miles is pumping gas at the Last Chance Before Death Valley gas station.

:confused:
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Hee. No. I'm in Colorado.

Thanks for the kind words. I'm just trying to learn, and sometimes you fellows say stuff that facilitates that.
 
Just thinking said:
You lucky dog! --- too bad the 9th didn't come off well. Actually, it sounds like a bit of a mis-match; the 9th being so long should have been paired with 2 shorter works instead of another lengthy one, such as is the Brahms. But, hey -- still a great evening of music.
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Well, actually, the first half of the program also had a symphonic synthesis of William Walton's music for the movie Hamlet.
And, BTW, anyone at all going to take a nibble at this?
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Sure. The fair solution is to pay Joe - and everyone else - exactly what he is worth, and for Joe - and everyone else - to provide services to the employer of a value equal to what he is paid. And damn the minimum wage.

Ideal world, of course.
 
HeavyAaron said:
By "you" I presume you mean a CEO of a company that he is not a stockholder (i.e. owner of)? It's true that when the person(s) running a company are not the same as the person(s) owning the company, than there is a potential for disaligned objectives. And of course economists have studied this extensively. So extensively, in fact to have a name for it. It's called "the agency problem." http://cbdd.wsu.edu/kewlcontent/cdoutput/TR505r/page6.htm

There are a number of known solutions. And the present day market incorperates a number of them.

I don't know of any perfect solutions. But for your assertion to hold true you must believe that no solutions exist or are used. You'd be wrong. Of course there are some stunning examples of people getting away with this sort of thing. How'd they do it? They circumvented the solutions, usually in criminal manners. The solutions continue to evolve and improve. It's a current area of research.

Aaron
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Where on earth did I say there were no solutions? I thought my statement was neutral. I merely stated what i stated, my implication was not that strong, I felt.
I doubt that I implied any absolutes in my post, and ownership is not always the solution, if the owner has the potential to sell the shares before they skedaddle.

And the free market does seem to be addressing the issue.
 
Ace_of_Sevens said:
Wow. I live in Cedar Rapids, Ia. The industry around here is dominated by software, information services and food-processing. A factory wage at Amana a few miles outside town starts at $14. A few factory jobs start as low as $10, but they're laughably unskilled things like stuffing Oatmeal packets into the variety packs for Ralston. Amost all are $12 and up. Hardly anyony actally gets minimum wage here. As far as I know, that would only apply to things the the concessions operator at the swimming pools, who's pretty much always a high schooler. Even simple jobs like grocery stores and fast food will start at $6-$6.50. Broader retail outlets like K-Mart and Target start at $7.50/hr for day workers and more at night. I believe that we have one of the highest export/import ratios of US cities though, which probably has a lot to do with it.
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My area of Illinois is actual very booming and prosperous, and there has been a huge building boom going on. the county I live in has a very low unemployement rate and provides jobs to all the more rural counties around it.

There are very high paying factory jobs and they have xtensive wait lists for employment. Most factory or warehouse work starts around $8.00/hour, some less. I think the main issue is because of the economic changes in the farm indistry there is a large population of people who need employement and can live at a lower wage while they find a better job or get raises.
 
Ziggurat said:
That's actually already a lot easier to do than is commonly believed. In fact, all it really takes to break free from multi-generational poverty is following some basic rules:

1) Don't do drugs or abuse alcohol
2) Don't commit crimes
3) Don't get married before you're 20
4) Don't have kids before you're married

Almost nobody who follows these four simple rules stays in poverty in this country, and almost everyone who remains in poverty broke one or more of those rules.
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You forgot the other one!

5. Don't let your worthless relatives live with you because they have screwed up thier lives, do not bail people out more than once.

The only one I don't agree with is 4), the biological imperative to have sex is high, but there are social and cultural pressures to not use brth control when you are 14 and horny.
 
shuize said:
Wrong. Most community colleges will allow students to enroll with a G.E.D. -- Oh wait. That's too hard? Well, then maybe you really are retarded.

Which brings me to this:



I know a number of people with learning disabilities who earn well above the minimum wage. I know even more people who had crappy home environments, including myself, who earn well above minimum wage. Of course, they are motivated individuals who don't use either as an excuse to stay in dead-end jobs.
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I am not making excuses, and I believe my tone reflected yours. But the people who are in middle class families and have reading and comprehension difficulties struggle to graduate from high school, much less the ones who come from families incapable or unwilling to help.

I was not saying a crappy home life is the determining factor, but if you drop out after getting Ds & Fs, and then work at a low wage then it can be very hard to get into a community college.

But there are things other than motivation to why people do what they do.

i agree , no excuse , which made people often upset with me when i was a socials ervice provider. It continues to frustrate the kids I work with now as well.

I am glad that you have succeded, that is great. operhaps your path is harder for others, perhaps not.

When did you get a loan that covered your living expenses/ i would like my daughter to have one.
 
gnome said:
If the physical needs of the population are guaranteed, I would consider abandoning minimum wage laws.

But, doesn't that just allow a business to underpay its employees and rely on the government to make up the difference? Seems like a form of corporate welfare.
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Thanks Gnome, but that would be another thread about why we have a free market for the poor and socialism for the rich. (Soundbyte from Gore Vidal).
 
HeavyAaron said:
I'm still flummuxed by the desire to connect these two things.

What our system currently is, and is sounds like yours is too, goes something like this:

1) welfare and foodstamps; no work required
2) minimum wage law guarentees minimum payment for wages; lose stage 1 benifits (potentially)

I'm proposing you get minimum physical needs provided for REGARDLESS of income. Then let wages float naturally.

There is no natural tie between wages and costs of physical needs. Why try to create one?

Aaron
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samll correction, you only get cash if you have children, you only get reasonable food stamps if you have no income.

The cash and carry model of welfare has changed, in essence you now have to have children or a disability to get benefits.

I feel that we do have to be careful how we provide benefits, having worked with those who benefits and those who exploit.

The one thing I feel would help the US is to have some sort of universal health plan, similar to the single payer but with the ability to continue supplemental insurance, that way we can have the economy of scale for the low end coverage for all, and the capital incentive for those hwo want to pay, or can pay for better coverage.

With an imporatant caveat, people who go to the Emergency department for routine car should be charged a penalty or made to do community service. And a requirement that no large office or agency can deny the universal care. but that means then that the universal care would have to compensate the provider at a high rate, as opposed to 50% or 25% as well.
 
HeavyAaron (or anyone, really), I thought of a couple of questions:

I see that the minimum wage came into effect in 1938. I'm assuming that's Depression-related, but haven't done my reading yet. So what made it necessary to institute minimum wage in the first place? Why wasn't the wage market regulating itself--was it largely the Depression? Or was it regulating itself according to the conditions at the time?

There must have been millions of unemployed, so supply and demand kicks in. 100 men for 10 jobs...no need to pay competetive wages. They'll take what you offer, and damned lucky to get it, too. And if the first ten don't want it, there are 90 others who do. So wages go into the dirt, and the government has to step in and say "Look, you have to pay people a certain wage. Maybe not a living wage, but something fair. And if you won't, we can make you." Is that roughly it?

Okay, so right now, especially compared to then, the situation has 180'd. Not that many unemployed, and a fair number of jobs to fill. Wages have to go up; businesses need the workers worse than workers need the jobs.

Now, this is probably simplistic, but, if that's so...why are there still employers paying $5.15? In writing that, I realize that this wage is most often reserved for new hires. I know that businesses that don't offer at least some kind of raise to employees end up with a high turnover rate as people move on, and that such a business is relatively rare, as high turnover ends up being damned expensive pretty quickly. Constantly training new hires means output/production stays near toilet-level, yes?

So I guess that leaves me asking, if most businesses aren't paying min. wage...why raise it? Is it symbolic? Is it recession insurance for the poor?

Or are there more still paying it and trying to keep people near it than we think?
 
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