• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Debate: Darwinism vs. Intelligent Design

I do understand what you are saying and agree to a certain extent however we can't forget that ID is in fact creationism, to allow the ID proponents (such as the DI) to avoid having to face that fact is wrong. So I do think it is right whenever debating with a proponent of ID to make sure the "audience" is aware that it's a new word for creationism.

Clearly where ID is raised, it is by creationists and for creationist purposes. Hence I can see that asking an IDer who he thinks the designer is is a fair question, and I will concede the argument on this point.
 
all you need to know:

ID for Dummies

©2006 vbloke publishing

1: Life, the universe and everything is too complex to have "evolved" through random mutations, not because we can't understand the mechanisms behind it or we don't want to admit that Darwinian "evilution" pretty much precludes the need for a god.

2: Therefore, there must have been a designer who created life pretty much as we know it. I mean, look at some of the cool stuff out there - it must have been designed. Flagellum, or eyes for example. How can eyes have "evolved"? I mean, come on.

3: This designer is not a specific god; in fact, it might not have even been a god, it might have been a race of super-intelligent aliens. We prefer the idea it was a god though - especially if it was our god.

4: ID is science because we say so - we're doing experiments on it, honest.

5: ID is not creationism, creationism says it was god (again, we prefer the notion it was our god) that did it all, whereas ID says it could have been anyone (see point 3)

6: There are loads of scientists who disagree with Darwinian "evilution" - we have a list of them. Please try and disregard the fact that they're all fervent Christians and very few of them have PhDs related to Biology, although we've snipped the media studies guys.

7: Our main textbook "Of Pandas and People" may have mentioned "creationism" once, but we rewrote it to replace "creationism" with "ID", as we felt people might not take us seriously if we left "creationism" in.

8: Although we don't explicitly state "god", we do try and imply it as much as possible. It also helps that we're a Christian pressure group.

9: Because ID is real science, the Darwinian "evilutionists" have to resort to using the courts to supress us as they feel threatened by us, or something.

10: It could have been aliens. Honest.
 
Last edited:
No Claus I'm afraid that just isn't the case there are several values/constants that are just what they are to make the theory "work" - physicists have no idea why those values are needed and they are not derived from other constants. (See the link I gave.)

Why does a constant have to be needed? Isn't enough for the constant to exist? Look at the constants in electromagnetism and Newtonian gravity. The speed of light is C, it does not need to justify itself to be true.
 
Why does a constant have to be needed? Isn't enough for the constant to exist? Look at the constants in electromagnetism and Newtonian gravity. The speed of light is C, it does not need to justify itself to be true.

In this case it is "needed" in order to make the mathematics reflect the empirical observations.

Yes, the speed of light is c, but why? "It just is!" is not usually accepted as a scientific argument, and many prospective Grand Unified Theories hope to explain particular physical constants as natural consequences of the theory. And of course some don't!
 
In this case it is "needed" in order to make the mathematics reflect the empirical observations.

Yes, the speed of light is c, but why? "It just is!" is not usually accepted as a scientific argument, and many prospective Grand Unified Theories hope to explain particular physical constants as natural consequences of the theory. And of course some don't!

These kinds of constants come up in math all the time(I am thinking about intergrals and such). Why is it important to note that they are arbitrary instead of being measured?

What is the theoretical mass of a cat? Why is that preferable to a measured mass of a cat?
 
OK, so Paul Nelson was having this debate in the University of Oslo. And one of the things he was asked was "who is the designer? The Christian God?".

To which he responded the standard noncommitting answer that: "I don't really know. It could be God, Allah, Yahweh, of the Flying Spagetti Monster. I'm only trying to open up for the possibility that things may have had some sort of an intelligent designer" in a manner that was implying it's not important who did it.

Then, during a break, his computer - hooked up to the projector and thus the huge screen in the lecture room - turns on the screensaver. Which says:

Nature is the art of God.

Now, if I was there, that's when I'd have said "Busted!" :D

Source (In Norwegian only, I'm afraid.)
 
So, the debate is starting in about 45 min (19:15 GMT+2) here, so I'm off... Not sure what to expect, but nothing surprising i guess.

I'll try to take notes :)
 
Why do they call it Darwinism? It's the theory of evolution. Do they also refer to relativity as Einsteinism? Do they intend to attack Maxwellism next?
 
So, this was entertaining :)

The debate is over, and with few surprises..

Paul A. Nelson:
- Used different examples where science has not yet (according to him) found an explanation.
- Claims that these could be explained by the theory of Intelligent Design (ID)
- Was very evasive when asked critical questions, and answered with new questions.
- Admitted that ID is not a proper scientific theory, yet...

Professor Bernt Walther:
- Said that ID is not proper science because it can not be falsified.
- Refused to call ID a theory, insisted upon using "hypothesis B" :)
- "Ignorance drives science", because we want to find out what we don't understand, not just labeling it "work of god"
- Commented that there's obvious conservative/religious ideas behind ID

Nelson used the same presentation he used in Oslo, see link posted by Hawk one.

He also mentioned an incident in Helsinki, Finland, where he was supposed to attend a conferance with some biologist, where the conferance was cancelled, due to what he claimed was "the biologists didn't want those questioned to be heard"...

Right before the debate was ended the leader of the debate asked Nelson:
- Do you think Intelligent Design is proper science?
Nelson: (hesitated for a while)
- Well... Yes, and no.

This was followed by laughter and loud coughing :)

I was hoping to see the screensaver on his computer, but apperantly he was aware of this and shut down his computer right before the break.
 
Why does a constant have to be needed? Isn't enough for the constant to exist? Look at the constants in electromagnetism and Newtonian gravity. The speed of light is C, it does not need to justify itself to be true.

Many times, constants are the result of the unit system. Chose the right unit system, and the multiplier is unity.

There is no reason why we couldn't work in a unit system in which pV = nT
 
Many times, constants are the result of the unit system. Chose the right unit system, and the multiplier is unity.

There is no reason why we couldn't work in a unit system in which pV = nT

In fact, quantum physicists work in eV (electron Volts) for just that reason. eV is the unit of mass, of energy and (in reciprocal) the unit of time.

Of course, if you redefine your units so that a particular formula has it's ugly constant reduced to '1', then a load of other formulae involving the same terms are suddenly going to require ugly constants of their own.:p
 
These kinds of constants come up in math all the time(I am thinking about intergrals and such). Why is it important to note that they are arbitrary instead of being measured?

What is the theoretical mass of a cat? Why is that preferable to a measured mass of a cat?


I'm sure it's very important in Grand Unified Cat Theory (a branch of 'Cat Length and Weight Studies', I believe
[*]).

A constant in physics is not so much an admission of 'we don't know why' as a statement to the effect 'we can't know why'. The standard model doesn't (can't) predict the masses of any of it's particles; AFAIK it also doesn't explain why there are only three families of them.

It would be nice if our physical theories could derive all the physical constants, so that we weren't in some Leibnitzian 'best of all possible worlds', but in the only possible world. Of course, the anthropicists might be right and there very well might not be a reason why the mass of an electron is 0.5 MeV.

As a former scientist, I sincerely hope that the number of things we cannot ,even in principle, know is very, very small. This obviously forms part of my objection to ID; introducing more things we can't possibly know is bad, mkay?

[* i.e. CLAWS ;)]
 
I'm sorry that I didn't see this thread until after the debate.

But if the science folks don't mind hearing out a rhetorician, maybe I can toss in my 2 cents for future reference.

Creationists love these "debates" because, no matter what happens, the simple fact that a "debate" occurred lends credence to their cause. It makes them appear to be a legitimate alternative. This is unfortunate, but the costs of refusing to engage them publicly must be weighed against the costs of accepting invitations to these side-shows.

Probably the best way to prep for one of these is to research the creationist's previous appearances and publications. They count on the fact that their show moves from venue to venue, so they can drag out the same old lies and dodges afresh.

Once you've done that, do 3 things.

1. Study their points, and the refutation of each point, til you have it down cold.

2. Do not use technical terms. Never forget that you're not actually speaking to the creationist -- you're speaking to the audience. Make your argument as simple, clear, and comprehensible as possible. Seek out analogies that others have used which make you think "Aha!" (My favorite example of this tactic comes from Richard Feynman: "In a memorable session of the Rogers Commission (the group that investigated the Challenger disaster) the late Richard Feynman, Nobel Prize-winning physicist, conducted a dramatic experiment. He affixed a C-clamp to a sample of O-ring material, dropped it into his glass of ice water, and then removed the clamp, revealing that the O-ring rubber lacked resiliency when cooled to 32 degrees Fahrenheit." )

3. Bring notecards, whenever possible, with dates, names, and thumbnail comments so you can not simply expose the lie, but expose it as a knowing lie, with lead-ins to questions such as "Dr. X, you made that same argument at a debate in Madison, Wisconsin on August 14, 2005, and you were informed then by Dr. Z that ...." You get my point. It's hard to collect that kind of data, but these guys trot out the same stuff over and over, so if you can pin a few points down, chances are you'll get a chance to use it.

Here's an excellent site regarding the tactics of Duane Gish.

Here's an excellent resource for developing counter-arguments.

And here's a teacher's resource page.

It is often difficult for scientists and science-minded people to keep in mind that debates such as these are not science -- they are theater. If we do not treat them as such, we are going to be outgunned, and left wondering why the public was not impressed with the obvious (to us) truth.
 
Well we always hear, from experts like Scott, that there really is no controversy.
And once again, you make sure to take the context away from it in the hopes of making a point...

Scott is pretty much claiming that there is really no scientific controversy on the main theory of evolution, and he's quite correct there. There are mostly the finer details that the scientific community discuss these days.

Darat, on the other hand, is not talking about a scientific controversy, but a political controversy. Yes, this political controversy is threatening science, but it is not the same thing as the internal scientific debates.

In other words, Scott's and Darat's statements aren't mutually exclusive. See how easy that was, if you'd only make sure to understand the context instead of leaving it out?
 

Back
Top Bottom