Penn & Teller barbecue the Bible

[RandFan]

No. Except...

In my opinion, laws can be *broken*. I guess it depends on what level you define or accept law. There are civil laws that are broken all the time. Are they laws. Or are "scientific" laws the only true laws?

The thing about laws, if you go with the scientific understanding...is...they don't need to be understood, or articulated. It is what it is. Calling it a law doesn't change or effect that, and if we never called it a law, the erstwhile laws would not care in the least.

We're fixating on law, and it's just going to lead to word quibbling, but I get your point, really.

I never intended to assert it to be the case, and if you inferred that from what I said I wish you wouldn't have, but oh well.

-Elliot

In all honesty I don't understand your point. You say that the law of gravity can no more be "proven" than gravity. I disagree. In the scientific sense it can be proven. Moral laws can't.

 

[IllegalArgument]

I will not gain favor with God by doing bad things.

Now, I understand if do a bad thing it's not God's will, but if you do a good thing it is God's will.

You would never do a bad thing in God's will, because God would never ask you to dol a bad thing.

Still sounds like circular logic, but at least I understand you.

 

[elliotfc]

Logic is the primary means used to determine whether some can or cannot be true.

Assuming you are right, that's independent of whether or not something actually is true.

When you tell logic to screw off because it disagrees with your ideas, that is called being delusional.

I don't actually think that logic exists. Objective truth exists, and logic is a coping mechanism. If there were no humans, there would be no logic. And if the logic that we proclaim is faulty or is out of its league when it comes to certain questions, so be it. I'll stick with objective truth, as it is, not as you as the prophet of logic would have it be.

-Elliot

 

[RandFan]

I agree that there is no god. There is a God though!

I don't want to debate the point but your statement is incoherent. I understand you wanting to quibble with my lack of formalizing the word but one is not mutually exclusive of the other. "God" would most certainly fit the definition of "god". At best your argument is semantical, and wrong at that.

 

[elliotfc]

Only because there exist people who believe in god. That a lot of people are fixated on some concept, a concept that effects me directly, is not a reason to suppose that it is of any significance other than the effect it has on my life.

No, obviously it *is* significant. I never suggested otherwise.

If and when lots of people start passing laws and killing other humans in the name of elves I will agree that it is significant in a way that the other examples aren't. Aside from that, I see no difference.

I think there is a big difference. As far as I know, no one is asserting that elves created/designed the universe, or, are unbegotten, or are the supreme judges of everything that is. You're welcome to be the first.

Evasive. I don't believe that Muslims, Pagans, Hindus, Sikhs, etc. believe in their god for no reason. I'm not sure what significance that is.

So?

My only point was that people believe in god for reasons, and not for no reason.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

Those are perfectly fine guidelines, but you would have to agree that God is not requried from them to be good?

I dunno. I could answer this in many ways, but I'll keep it simple. No, you don't have to be a theist to accept what may be promoted as theistic morality.

-Elliot

 

[RandFan]

However, if one shows up on my doorstep, should I confirm/reject it by praying, or by touching it and asking what the Hell he's doing on my doorstep?

That's the problem. If an elf showed up at your door step that would be physical proof.

1.) The elf has not shown up at your door (no physical proof).
2.) God has not shown up at your door (no physical proof).

That doesn't keep people from believing in elves and god, does it?

So was the stupid elf.

It was called for and it wasn't a personal attack.

Congratulations. Enjoy your life with the elves and in accordance with Elfen law.

Since there is as much god's law as elves law then I should do just fine.

 

[elliotfc]

Yes, it is tremendously important that we accept responsability not only for our own actions, but how we judge our actions, and the actions of others.

Agreed.

Morality is a complex issue and no paternal sky chieftan can or will sort it out for us.

Agreed. God will not sort out our issues with morality for us.

Once we accept that morality is not imposed by a god, but something we've partly evolved, and partly developed through our culture, we can grow up and start to behave like civilized adults.

I agree that God does not impose morality on us. If he did, there would be no immorality.

We can stop whitewashing our actions as "good" because "god told us to do that," and we can stop denouncing different as "evil," merely because some long dead ignorant bigots claimed to have channeled the will of a "god."

I agree that different doesn't mean evil. God knows I think different from you, eh?

-Elliot

 

[RandFan]

No, obviously it *is* significant. I never suggested otherwise.

Yes, but what significance. That there exists some significance is no reason to elevate what ever it is we are talking about. There was a time lots of people believed in leprechauns and that he leprechauns were significant in the lives, culture and customs of those people, so what?

I think there is a big difference. As far as I know, no one is asserting that elves created/designed the universe, or, are unbegotten, or are the supreme judges of everything that is. You're welcome to be the first.

So what? I hardly see the difference except your brother is bigger than the schools bullies brother. Who cares about how grand the fantasy is?

My only point was that people believe in god for reasons, and not for no reason.

Ally beliefs in mythologies exist for reasons, so what?

 

[Huntster]

......Truth shouldn't be based on opinion.

Hindus: We have the truth because we say we do.
Sikhs: We have the truth because we say we do.
Pagans: We have the truth because we say we do.
Mormons: We have the truth because we say we do.
Jehovah's Witnesses: We have the truth because we say we do.
Scientologists: We have the truth because we say we do.

RandFan: I have the truth because I say so.

Huntster: I don't have the truth, but being raised Catholic and finding Catholic theology as sound as any other (and sounder than many), choose to seek Truth in the Catholic tradition, recognizing that no person has Truth in a cage.

Everyone has the right to say so but what good is it?

You'll have to ask them. I'm not among 'em.

Atheists: We will only accept that which can be objectively and/or logically proven.

Good luck. Go with...........Whoever or Whatever.

 

[elliotfc]

This is a nonsensical and incoherent statement. Objective truth and fallacy are mutually exclusive, always. No exception has been found to date.

I don't know if I want to get into this. Many things that have been claimed to be fallacious were shown to be not-fallacious. Fallacy is dependent, and not the other way around. If something hasn't been shown to be fallacious *yet*, oh well, that doesn't mean that our declarations of fallatio are anything more than what we are currently able to understand.

"IF". That one great big "if". Let's figure out if it is true first. Hey, if Allah wants us all to be good little Muslims then that would dwarf any point you are trying to make about Jesus being crucified.

Agreed.

See, that's the thing about truth. I start by questioning all of my assumptions and then try and find the truth. Muslims start with the assumption that they are right and try and then use the Koran to try and convince everyone else that they are right.

First, *which of your assumptions are you actually questioning*.

Second, I'd argue that Muslims tend *not* to use the Koran to try to convince everyone else that they are right. I've known many Muslims, and I've never experienced Koran fueled proselytizing.

QUESTION: How can Muslims find the truth that they are wrong?

Heck, send me a PM and I'll give you my e-mail address, and distribute it amongst all your Muslim friends, I'll set 'em right. Duh.

Seriously, wrong about *what* in particular?

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

In all honesty I don't understand your point. You say that the law of gravity can no more be "proven" than gravity. I disagree. In the scientific sense it can be proven. Moral laws can't.

My point is that if we never articulate the law of gravity, it doesn't matter. If we never understand the law of gravity, it doesn't matter. It just is, independent of "law" which only exists because people exist.

Now, you don't need "science" to understand that if you jump off a building, you'll fall. Anecdote or personal experience will suffice.

I've never invoked the phrase "moral law" in this thread, so I don't know if I ought to be defending the phrase. I've simply said what I'm saying. Maybe that's why you're not understanding my point. You're waiting for me to proclaim the wonder of moral laws, when I'm not trying to do any such thing.

-Elliot

 

[Huntster]

Now, I understand if do a bad thing it's not God's will, but if you do a good thing it is God's will.

IMO, that is correct.

You would never do a bad thing in God's will, because God would never ask you to dol a bad thing.

That is not correct. I do bad things, they are not God's will, but I do them occasionally because I'm human (weak in spirit, trapped in the flesh).

Because I accept that the crucifixion of Christ was full redemption for the sins of man, I am grateful and in awe of His sacrifice for us, I can be forgiven for my sins.

If you refuse to accept this sacrifice, how can it possibly redeem you?

 

[elliotfc]

Now, I understand if do a bad thing it's not God's will, but if you do a good thing it is God's will.

I disagree. For example, pro-life Catholics believe that they are doing a *good thing* in praying rosaries in front of abortion mills, I mean clinics. But does God will to shut down those abortion clinics because of the rosaries? It appears not.

As Mother Teresa said, we credit *successes* to God, but mere faithfulness (most certainly a good thing) we don't credit to God.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

I don't want to debate the point but your statement is incoherent. I understand you wanting to quibble with my lack of formalizing the word but one is not mutually exclusive of the other. "God" would most certainly fit the definition of "god". At best your argument is semantical, and wrong at that.

It was meant to be cheeky, and just that.

I don't know if God fits the definition of god by the way. Some gods were begotten, while the Christian God is unbegotten. In some ways does it fit the definition of god? I guess so.

-Elliot

 

[I less than three logic]

What makes you think that good/evil don't have laws? Doesn't everything else?

I don't think they have absolute laws. No, I don't think everything has absolute laws which govern them. What do you find attractive? Do we all abide by absolute laws there?

Why not?

Who are you to dictate whether or not faith is acceptable?

Are you God?

Don't need to be God here. Admitting that it is based on faith renders your analogy of absoluteness comparable to gravity simply incorrect. Those others examples are not based on faith, but observable analysis.

Are you suggesting that good/evil do not have observable effects?

Observable perhaps, but observable with objective results, hardly. Remember your making an analogy with absolute laws; such laws would require objective right or wrong answers. You know, like the mathematics of gravity.

Our understanding of physical law has come through experimentation with physical tests. You cannot experiment with spiritual law with physical tests or measurements and expect accurate answers.

Oh, I don't require physical tests. Any tests that can produce some objective answers will suffice. Can you think of any, or is it completely immeasurable?

The effects of spiritual law cannot be "measurable" with physical tests or measurements.

How do you know there are effects for these laws? What evidence are you basing this assumption on?

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Now, you don't need "science" to understand that if you jump off a building, you'll fall. Anecdote or personal experience will suffice.

Yes, you do. "Things fall down," Is a scientific law. It's just an inaccurate one, and also imprecise. Laws are descriptions of natural phenomenea. Animals tends to adapt to natural laws. The skylab experiments with rats and spiders that even such lower order animals are capable of recognizing natural phenomenea, and altering their behavior to match.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
However, if one shows up on my doorstep, should I confirm/reject it by praying, or by touching it and asking what the Hell he's doing on my doorstep?

That's the problem. If an elf showed up at your door step that would be physical proof.

1.) The elf has not shown up at your door (no physical proof).
2.) God has not shown up at your door (no physical proof).

The problem is that elves are physical beings (thus subject to physical law) and God is obviously not.

Get it?:

Physical; subject to physical law.

Not Physical; not observable, testable, etc with physical law.

That doesn't keep people from believing in elves and god, does it?

Obviously. I accept the concept of spiritual law, and believe in God. I accept physical law, have seen or know of no physical evidence of elves, and thus greatly doubt their existance.

You reject spiritual law as well as the spiritual existence of God. You claim to be an adherent to physics, yet are discussing elves and Elfen Law.

Go figure............

Quote:
So was the stupid elf.

It was called for and it wasn't a personal attack.

You're right. It wasn't a personal attack.

It was an intellectual insult.

You "called for the elf". Enjoy him/her.

Quote:
Congratulations. Enjoy your life with the elves and in accordance with Elfen law.

Since there is as much god's law as elves law then I should do just fine

.

Interesting. I stated I wasn't much interested in wasting time studying up on elves, but if you have as much reference on Elfen Law as I can drum up on God's Law, I might take a peek at it. Hell, maybe it can explain your bizarre behavior.

Got a reference to this vast library of Elfen Law?

 

[Pauliesonne]

Now, I understand if do a bad thing it's not God's will, but if you do a good thing it is God's will.

IMO, that is correct.



That is not correct. I do bad things, they are not God's will, but I do them occasionally because I'm human (weak in spirit, trapped in the flesh).

Because I accept that the crucifixion of Christ was full redemption for the sins of man, I am grateful and in awe of His sacrifice for us, I can be forgiven for my sins.

If you refuse to accept this sacrifice, how can it possibly redeem you?

Maybe you're asking forgiveness to a non-existant god and should be praying to the Jewish god.

I don't believe in either but as long as the chicago tribune pays me, I'll say anything.

 

[I less than three logic]

Got a reference to this vast library of Elfen Law?

That would be Elven Law.