Is religious tolerance a bad idea?

[andyandy]

I'm going to post these paragraphs again.....

Philadelphia–Depressed seniors who believe their life is guided by a larger spiritual force have significantly fewer symptoms of depression than those who do not use religious coping strategies. Moreover, this relationship is independent of the amount of social support those individuals receive, according to results of a prospective study presented at the 2002 annual meeting of the American Psychiatric Association.

Many studies have linked a lack of religiosity to depression. Religious commitment is associated with a reduced incidence of depression13 and a quicker recovery from depressive illness for the elderly.15 Two separate reviews of the literature have supported this: those with high levels of "religious involvement", "religious salience" and "intrinsic religious motivation" were at reduced risk,14 and religious commitment was inversely related to suicide risk in 13 of 16 studies reviewed.13 One study showed a fourfold increased risk of suicide for non-churchgoers compared with regular attenders,22 and no study has shown an increased risk of suicide among churchgoers.

snip

The reasons why people with a sense of religious commitment are less likely to become depressed may include a feeling of social connectedness, exposure to messages about healthy living, or perhaps the reduced exposure to drug-taking behaviour. However, studies controlling for these factors have still found religiosity to be independently protective. So there may be other reasons, such as the comfort that comes from believing in a benevolent and caring God, the view that justice always prevails in the end, or that adverse events always have a meaning and a message. Such attitudes would buffer enormously against the ill-effects of life stresses and the depression that often follows.

The important role that mental health plays in the development and progression of physical illness goes part way to explaining why religious commitment is associated with reduced risk of conditions such as hypertension, heart disease and cancer.26,27,29,30 A population study over nine years showed that all-cause mortality was significantly reduced and life expectancy increased (to 82 years v. 75 years) for regular churchgoers. The findings were not explainable by the accepted lifestyle and social variables,24 and were consistent with other data.25

both of these studies were controlled to take into account social support, and the second study was also controlled to take into account "positive messages" on drugs or healthy living. Despite this the effect of religion was still found to be significant.

 

[JayT]

Intolerance Is Forever

What about the various religions that teach intolerance in the context that theirs is the ONLY true religion and all others are false religions?

And what about those religions that teach their believers that all other religions and their symbols and idols must be destroyed?

I can think of at least three major religions that teach this kind of intolerance.

If they practiced religious tolerance, then they would be violating their sacred texts. And we can't have that, can we?

Therefore it is OK to maim and murder in the name of religion because there is no sin in the name of [insert favourite deity here].

Surah 9:5
Fight and slay the pagans (non-Muslims) wherever you find them.

Surah 3:85
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost.

The Table Spread 5:72
They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

The Table Spread 5:73
They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

This clearly means that Allah is the only true god and Islam is the only true religion.
The Holy Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) is a lie.

Exodus 19:5-6
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:

And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Exodus 22:20
He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Exodus 23:27
I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people.

Exodus 34:13-14
But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God

God says to Moses that the Israelites (Jews) are his chosen people, favoured above all those on earth, as long as they believe. Anyone who worships any other god will be totally destroyed. They are to seek out and destroy the religions of others.

Well. that seems clear enough.


And it gets worse. Much, much worse.
You should see what the Torah says about non-Jews.

These are just a few trivial samples of why religions, hatred, murder, fear and oppression fit together like hand and glove as long as they have existed and will keep doing as long as they continue to exist. That is, unless they violate the teachings of their respective religions and decide to get along with each other. That would make them all heretics, heathens and infidels.

I think religious intolerance is self-explanatory.

 

[ceo_esq]

It's a belief maintained in spite of overwhelming evidence that it is false. Consult a dictionary if you need to be reminded about what a delusion is.

If you're aware of overwhelming evidence that all forms of theism are false, I suggest you publish it. It would really make waves in philosophical circles, not to mention, I suspect, in any number of other disciplines. In fact, why don't you do JREF the honor of publishing a preview here first? I guarantee you that nothing like that has ever been seen on this forum.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

If you're aware of overwhelming evidence that all forms of theism are false, I suggest you publish it. It would really make waves in philosophical circles, not to mention, I suspect, in any number of other disciplines. In fact, why don't you do JREF the honor of publishing a preview here first? I guarantee you that nothing like that has ever been seen on this forum.

Nonsense. Evidence that the universe was created by a God from darkness? Zilch. Evidence that god smote the limbs off of snakes? Zilch. Evidence that god turned a woman into salt? Zilch. Evidence of a worldwide flood within the reign of humanity? Zilch. Evidence of Heaven? Zilch. Hell? Zilch? Evidence that prayer works? Zilch. Evidence that god is good and loving? Zilch. Evidence that god is cruel and wrathful? Zilch.

Evidence that people will persist believing a fireside fairy tale told by ignorant desert nomads to put their kids to bed despite the way it contradicts every single thing we've learned about the universe and how is works? Plenty.

Don't give me that "the absence of evidence" tripe. There's no proof that invisible gossamer dragons who eat intangible tigers who eat incorporeal unicorns don't exist, but if someone proclaimed belief in those, we'd throw them in the looney bin, and rightly so.

 

[JayT]

I don't understand it, I just sprayed for Gossamer Dragons last week!

Don't give me that "the absence of evidence" tripe. There's no proof that invisible gossamer dragons who eat intangible tigers who eat incorporeal unicorns don't exist, but if someone proclaimed belief in those, we'd throw them in the looney bin, and rightly so.

Although it is tempting, I wouldn't go so far as to send them to the looney bin merely for their beliefs alone, gossamer dragons or whatnot. That would be very undemocratic in a pluralistic society that consists of a multitude of various cultures and beliefs - your own included.

But, if they tried to hurt or kill people and/or stir up a mob of frenzied religious psychopaths to murderous violence against those who didn't believe as they did, then they certainly should be locked away from general society. Such people have no worth at all in a civilized country.

Beliefs alone shouldn't qualify anyone for imprisonment or other abuses, but the way they act on those beliefs is a different story.

I could live peacefully around Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus or anyone else, as long as they didn't try to kill me or show malignant hatred and shun me for simply having beliefs different than theirs or no such beliefs at all - if they would just let me live in peace.

The problem with 'beliefs' is not merely having them, but in how you practice them with respect to society as a whole.

Imagine a room full of people of different religious beliefs and you informed them that the government wants to establish a single, official state religion by law. You ask them which religion should it be and why. I have a hunch that it wouldn't be long before they were breaking chairs over each other's heads in the heated controversy that followed. That is just how religions in general behave in society when they get involved in government - hence the reason for separation of church and state in a democratic society consisting of many competing religions.

In the case of the United States:

...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

From Article VI, section 3 of the U.S. Constitution

Christian fanatics want to do away with that article and want to 'infiltrate' the government with that and similar goals in mind. If we let that happen, then the USA deserves the bloody consequences.

The Founding Fathers were not as clueless as some suggest. Thousands of years of painful historical experience motivated that article. They knew exactly what they were doing.

States of religion are states of distress.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Although it is tempting, I wouldn't go so far as to send them to the looney bin merely for their beliefs alone, gossamer dragons or whatnot. That would be very undemocratic in a pluralistic society that consists of a multitude of various cultures and beliefs - your own included.

I suppose it's just too much to hope for for a hyperbole for dramatic effect to go unremarked on. However, can we agree that the beleif in the ecologically complex pantheon of invisible animals is a delusion?

 

[JayT]

Holy Temple of the Gossamer Dragon, Batman !

I suppose it's just too much to hope for for a hyperbole for dramatic effect to go unremarked on. However, can we agree that the beleif in the ecologically complex pantheon of invisible animals is a delusion?

Yes. We can certainly agree on that.

I wasn't entirely sure if it was hyperbole or not. Some people are quite passionate in how they express themselves on this issue, in case you haven't noticed.
LOL

 

[elliotfc]

Nonsense. Evidence that the universe was created by a God from darkness? Zilch.

Was there darkness before there was light? And where exactly does light come from?

The question ought to be "evidence that the universe was created by a God", the darkness thing applies to materialism as well as intelligent design.

Of course ceo requested overwhelming evidence that proved theism was false, and you're talking about something different here.

Don't give me that "the absence of evidence" tripe.

Too late.

There's no proof that invisible gossamer dragons who eat intangible tigers who eat incorporeal unicorns don't exist, but if someone proclaimed belief in those, we'd throw them in the looney bin, and rightly so.

I disagree. Prove me wrong.

Why don't you advocate that invisible gossamer dragons who eat intangible tigers who eat incorporeal unicorns exist, and let's see what happenes. If you're not interested, I promise to reject your assertion outright, deal?

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

I suppose it's just too much to hope for for a hyperbole for dramatic effect to go unremarked on. However, can we agree that the beleif in the ecologically complex pantheon of invisible animals is a delusion?

OK, fine, you got me.

Anybody who believes in invisible unicorns who eat insubstantial...whatever it is that you said...sure, anybody who purports that is delusional.

-Elliot

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Was there darkness before there was light? And where exactly does light come from?

According to the Big Bang model, not really.

As for your completely disingenuous offer, don't make me laugh. No one can prove such beings exist, neither can you proove leprachauns, gods, angels, or honest politicians exist. Persisting in a belief in them is childish at best, and demented at worst.

 

[elliotfc]

According to the Big Bang model, not really.

As for your completely disingenuous offer, don't make me laugh. No one can prove such beings exist, neither can you proove leprachauns, gods, angels, or honest politicians exist. Persisting in a belief in them is childish at best, and demented at worst.

Christians call it child-like, as opposed to childish, based on the gospels.

But I'll make you a deal. If God exists, I promise not to care about your estimation about my belief.

-Elliot

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Christians call it child-like, as opposed to childish, based on the gospels.

Oooh, the Gospels! Well, there's a pile of useful, factual books shown to be historically accurate, based on which we should make all our moral choices. [/Sarcasm]

But I'll make you a deal. If God exists, I promise not to care about your estimation about my belief.

-Elliot

All I see is "If god exist, blah blah blah blah." It doesn't. Get over it.

 

[elliotfc]

All I see is "If god exist, blah blah blah blah." It doesn't. Get over it.

Boy, you're all hung up about something that doesn't exist. Nice one!

-Elliot

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Boy, you're all hung up about something that doesn't exist. Nice one!

-Elliot

No, I'm all hung up about living a world run by people who are insane, people who believe in something which cannot possibly be true, and use this beleif to guide their actions. I'm hung up about living in a world where abortion clinics are bombed by rabbid theists and no one thinks to address the root cause of their murders; religion. I'm hung up about living in a world where ignorant, hateful madmen hijack planes and kill thousands of Americans, and yet we still treat religion as a sacred cow that reason is not allowed to take down. I'm hung up about living in a world where where god gets praise and thanks for the hard work and tuireless dedication of ambulance drivers, nurses, EMT's, paramedics, and doctors. I'm hung up about living in a world where the leaders of nations, including our own, proudly declares that GOD told him to go to war. I'm hung up about living in a world where people die while praying to get well, rather than take their medicine on time, because they'd rather put themselves in god's hands than a doctor's.

Humanity is danger of drowning in insanity, and religion is a stone around our necks. Without it, we're not assured a good world, but it'll definately be a less crazy one.

 

[Skeptic]

Hmm. That does somewhat change things. I don't remember reading anything to that effect, so I'll do a little more research. If I'm wrong about this topic, then I concede. Can you provide me with a source?

The church is against condoms. But it is also for monogamy, abstinence outside of marriage, and against homosexuality. If one follows the church teachings one will not get aids even without a condom. Somehow I cannot imagine anybody saying: "I'm going to town to pick up a male prostitute, but I won't wear a condom because the Pope doesn't allow it."

 

[elliotfc]

The church is against condoms. But it is also for monogamy, abstinence outside of marriage, and against homosexuality. If one follows the church teachings one will not get aids even without a condom.

I'm quibbling as a Catholic, tee hee. Of course you can get HIV without a condom if you enter a monogamous relationship with someone who was HIV+.

If...everybody followed through with the Church mandates...you'd see a REMARKABLE decline in HIV transmission in the immediate future...but you'd still have some HIV transmission. After a year you *wouldn't* because everybody would be locked in monogamy. And then there's drug use and other ways of getting HIV.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

No, I'm all hung up about living a world run by people who are insane, people who believe in something which cannot possibly be true, and use this beleif to guide their actions. I'm hung up about living in a world where abortion clinics are bombed by rabbid theists and no one thinks to address the root cause of their murders; religion. I'm hung up about living in a world where ignorant, hateful madmen hijack planes and kill thousands of Americans, and yet we still treat religion as a sacred cow that reason is not allowed to take down. I'm hung up about living in a world where where god gets praise and thanks for the hard work and tuireless dedication of ambulance drivers, nurses, EMT's, paramedics, and doctors. I'm hung up about living in a world where the leaders of nations, including our own, proudly declares that GOD told him to go to war. I'm hung up about living in a world where people die while praying to get well, rather than take their medicine on time, because they'd rather put themselves in god's hands than a doctor's.

Humanity is danger of drowning in insanity, and religion is a stone around our necks. Without it, we're assured a good world, but it'll definately be a less crazy one.

Fine, we agree that you've got a hang up.

How many years of religion, and today we're in danger of drowning. Brillilant. Any day now there won't be 6 billion people, there'll just be 1 billion. Any day now.

As for your assertion that religion makes for a crazy crazy world, why don't you try for a utopia of non-religious people? Surely that's bound to be a winner. I dunno...maybe start a government that is officially atheist. Yeah. And then in the country you can outlaw religion. Yeah, that'll work. If only it could be tried. Yeah.

-Elliot

 

[Freethinker]

Fine, we agree that you've got a hang up.

How many years of religion, and today we're in danger of drowning. Brillilant. Any day now there won't be 6 billion people, there'll just be 1 billion. Any day now.

As for your assertion that religion makes for a crazy crazy world, why don't you try for a utopia of non-religious people? Surely that's bound to be a winner. I dunno...maybe start a government that is officially atheist. Yeah. And then in the country you can outlaw religion. Yeah, that'll work. If only it could be tried. Yeah.

-Elliot

Another standard non-answer Elliot. When you are painted into a corner in a discussion you resort to sarcastic wise cracks to cover up the fact that you cannot answer with facts, and refuse to acknowledge the facts in the opposing argument. Try sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "Nyah-nyah-nyah. I can't hear you!" Same effect. You simply refuse to acknowledge a rational argument that refutes your own, or a rational point that conflicts with your view. Probably part of the suspension of disbelief required to believe in supernatural beings.

 

[andyandy]

What happened to an argument based on facts not opinions ID? You seem to have lapsed into lazy rhetoric.....I guess you aren't even willing to entertain the possibility that a religious outlook may in fact have any benefits whatsoever - simply because to do so would be to invalidate your own beliefs - and so like a fundamental Christian you simply ignore any evidence that does not fit your own worldview. Whatever happened to objectivity? As I've said already, I see little difference between your own closed-minded and dogmatic stance to those of the monotheistics you despise so much.....which is kind of ironic....

 

[ImaginalDisc]

What happened to an argument based on facts not opinions ID?

I have facts that Atheists and agnostics in America are poorly treated and distrusted. You have what facts exactly?