Is religious tolerance a bad idea?

[elliotfc]

On what grounds do you form speculation?

This particular speculation?

Many religious people have hinted or outright said that if they didn't believe in God they'd be sociopathic.

If someone is not a believer, then they are an atheist or agnostic, by definition.

I'm talking about religion. I am of the opinion that you can be a non-religious believer. If you disagree, to go further on this would be talking past you. I'm guessing you disagree, so I'll just stop here for the moment.

Edit: Honestly, where do you get this notion that people are emotionally better off with religion? Is there any evidence for this, or is this merely an opinion you're dressing up as a fact?

First, I didn't assert that people (in general) are emotionally better off with religion.

Second, I think that many people are emotionally better off with religion, based on their personal testimony.

Third, I agree that a general assertion would merely be opinion, which is why I didn't, nor will I, offer such an opinion.

Edit #2: Anticipating that you'll say, "Because when I ask thesists, they say that is how they'd feel if they stopped believing," consider the following.

No, how they'd feel if they stopped believing is not relevant to me, that's extra speculation. It's enough for me to here about what has *actually* been emotionally experienced.

Likewise, you cannot ask believers how they anticipate feeling after becoming an atheist or agnositc, because they probably won't be correct.

Agreed, which is why I'm not interested in that point.

-Elliot

 

[ImaginalDisc]

I do indeed know what it means. They only criticize Islam when it bumps into a domestic issue (which is never, unless it has something to do with American foreign policy in the Dar al-Islam). Sounds very convenient to me, like an excuse to ignore the elephant in the room.

If the NOW really cared about oppressed women, they would make their #1 priority the improvement of conditions and human rights for women in the Islamic world - women who really are oppressed, uniquely so in fact. But they don't. It's easier to harp on non-issues in the US.

A) Read Rachella's post, which follows the one you quoted.

B) What part of "National" is so difficult for you to understand?

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Many religious people have hinted or outright said that if they didn't believe in God they'd be sociopathic.

First, I didn't assert that people (in general) are emotionally better off with religion.

Astoundingly, you did claim that. Don't be a disgusting weasel.

I am speculating, but I base it on the fact that many religious people say that if they *weren't* religious, they'd be nihilistic or fatalistic. I think it's reasonable to believe them on that point.

I repeat, it is not reasonable to take their word for it. Use studies of atheists and agnositcs to determine how people feel when they divest themselves of the disease of religion, if your interest is in facts, rather than opinion.

 

[elliotfc]

Astoundingly, you did claim that. Don't be a disgusting weasel.

Could you provide the # of the post where I made that claim?

I actually think that atheists get emotional comfort from atheism. I know I've said that many times. Sometimes I think I'd get more emotional comfort from atheism.

Whatever. It's not a point that I made, and please prove otherwise.

I repeat, it is not reasonable to take their word for it. Use studies of atheists and agnositcs to determine how people feel when they divest themselves of the disease of religion, if your interest is in facts, rather than opinion.

You're assuming that the people who actually *don't* divest themselves of religion would behave as those who actually *do*. Meaning...you're assuming that the personalities of fundamentalist Christians are like your own, except for the bit about being religious believers.

-Elliot

 

[andyandy]

Astoundingly, you did claim that. Don't be a disgusting weasel.



I repeat, it is not reasonable to take their word for it. Use studies of atheists and agnositcs to determine how people feel when they divest themselves of the disease of religion, if your interest is in facts, rather than opinion.

maybe this thread could do with a little more tolerance.

How about studies on christianity and depression? Discussed on this thread -
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62181&highlight=christianity+depression

actually, i started the thread presuming that atheists would fare better than christians, but having seen studies to the contrary i'm willing to suggest the opposite could be true.

Many studies have linked a lack of religiosity to depression. Religious commitment is associated with a reduced incidence of depression13 and a quicker recovery from depressive illness for the elderly.15 Two separate reviews of the literature have supported this: those with high levels of "religious involvement", "religious salience" and "intrinsic religious motivation" were at reduced risk,14 and religious commitment was inversely related to suicide risk in 13 of 16 studies reviewed.13 One study showed a fourfold increased risk of suicide for non-churchgoers compared with regular attenders,22 and no study has shown an increased risk of suicide among churchgoers.

The reasons why people with a sense of religious commitment are less likely to become depressed may include a feeling of social connectedness, exposure to messages about healthy living, or perhaps the reduced exposure to drug-taking behaviour. However, studies controlling for these factors have still found religiosity to be independently protective. So there may be other reasons, such as the comfort that comes from believing in a benevolent and caring God, the view that justice always prevails in the end, or that adverse events always have a meaning and a message. Such attitudes would buffer enormously against the ill-effects of life stresses and the depression that often follows.

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_10_201100/hassed/hassed.html

Quote:
Philadelphia–Depressed seniors who believe their life is guided by a larger spiritual force have significantly fewer symptoms of depression than those who do not use religious coping strategies. Moreover, this relationship is independent of the amount of social support those individuals receive, according to results of a prospective study presented at the 2002 annual meeting of the American Psychiatric Association.

"This is a pretty remarkable study–and when you see these kind of data coming out from both medical and psychiatric populations, it’s hard to continue ignoring religion as a variable in the recovery from depression," said Harold G. Koenig, MD, associate professor of psychiatry and of medicine at Duke University Medical Center, Durham, N.C.

According to study author Hayden Bosworth, PhD, attempts in the literature to distinguish the effects of religion from the effects of social support on depression have led to mixed success (Husaini BA et al. Int J Aging Hum Dev 1999;48:63-72). Dr. Bosworth, associate director, health services research and development, Durham Veterans Affairs Medical Center, and his colleagues attempted to address the issue by examining the effects of religious practices, coping mechanisms and social support on recovery among individuals diagnosed with major depression.

"These results indicate that clinicians should encourage reconnection with religion as a way of coping in patients whose spirituality has been important to them," concluded Dr. Bosworth.

"Physicians need to pay attention to their patients’ religious beliefs and practices," added Dr. Koenig. "Rather than continuing to see it as a liability or unhealthy crutch, they should see it as a potential strength in overcoming depression."

http://www.mental-health-today.com/articles/spirituality.htm

Are these studies all right? if you're interested in more than just opinion?

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Could you provide the # of the post where I made that claim?

156, which I quoted above.

You cannot ask theists how they will feel if they give up their delusion and expect an accurate response. That's like asking children how they will feel after they grow up.

If you want to learn how giving up theism affects people, ask former theists.

How many times must I say it?

 

[trvlr2]

What nobody quoted my hero yet?

The most curious social convention of the great age in which we live is the one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected.
-- H. L. Mencken, in American Mercury (March, 1930)

We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.
-- H. L. Mencken, Minority Report (1956), quoted from Jonathon Green, The Cassell Dictionary of Insulting Quotations

The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous. Is it, perchance, cherished by persons who should know better? Then their folly should be brought out into the light of day, and exhibited there in all its hideousness until they flee from it, hiding their heads in shame.
True enough, even a superstitious man has certain inalienable rights. He has a right to harbor and indulge his imbecilities as long as he pleases, provided only he does not try to inflict them upon other men by force. He has a right to argue for them as eloquently as he can, in season and out of season. He has a right to teach them to his children. But certainly he has no right to be protected against the free criticism of those who do not hold them. He has no right to demand that they be treated as sacred. He has no right to preach them without challenge. Did Darrow, in the course of his dreadful bombardment of Bryan, drop a few shells, incidentally, into measurably cleaner camps? Then let the garrisons of those camps look to their defenses. They are free to shoot back. But they can't disarm their enemy.
-- H. L. Mencken, "Aftermath" (coverage of the Scopes Trial) The Baltimore Evening Sun, (September 14, 1925)

His opinions are pretty much mine.

And mine,as well.

A pox upon the apologists!

The only difference between MY cult and yours is membership-yours has more. Therefore, it is even more ridiculous!

 

[ImaginalDisc]

maybe this thread could do with a little more tolerance.

How about studies on christianity and depression? Discussed on this thread -
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62181&highlight=christianity+depression

actually, i started the thread presuming that atheists would fare better than christians, but having seen studies to the contrary i'm willing to suggest the opposite could be true.



http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_10_201100/hassed/hassed.html





http://www.mental-health-today.com/articles/spirituality.htm

Are these studies all right? if you're interested in more than just opinion?

Do you have anything remotely relvant? The claim was that theists would become nihilists and fatalists if they gave up religion. Even if there IS a correlation between being agnostic/atheist and depression, that does not lead to a conclusion of cuasation. There are numerous studies which show that homosexuals have higher depression rates than heterosexuals. However, that depression is not caused by homosexuality itself, but rather by the intolerance of a culture run by small minded bigots who constantly trot out the cannards that homosexuality is evil, and so is atheism/agnosticism.

 

[elliotfc]

156, which I quoted above.

Ooooooooooooo Kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

I just read 156 and I said *nothing remotely close* to people being emotionally better off because of religion.

This is too silly to waste any more words on, you're just making things up about me, whatever.

You cannot ask theists how they will feel if they give up their delusion and expect an accurate response. That's like asking children how they will feel after they grow up.

You just want to insult religious people. Yawn.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

Do you have anything remotely relvant? The claim was that theists would become nihilists and fatalists if they gave up religion.

The claim was that *some* theists would become nilhilists/fatalists. One percent? Once percent of 5 billion being a significant number.

Even if there IS a correlation between being agnostic/atheist and depression, that does not lead to a conclusion of cuasation. There are numerous studies which show that homosexuals have higher depression rates than heterosexuals. however, that depression is not caused by homosexuality itself, but rather by the intolerance of a culture run by small minded bigots who continuously trot out the cannards that homosexuality is evil, and so is atheism/agnosticism.

Good point. Of course correlation is independent of causation. But I don't think anybody was advocating causation.

-Elliot

 

[andyandy]

Do you have anything remotely relvant? The claim was that theists would become nihilists and fatalists if they gave up religion. Even if there IS a correlation between being agnostic/atheist and depression, that does not lead to a conclusion of cuasation.

I can certainly see how looking at depression in atheists/theists may be relevant to studying fatalism in the non-religious - can't you? I've provided some evidence that those who are religious seem to be able to cope better with depression than those without religion. I'm sure the reasons for this are manifold - and it is true that it does not necessarily prove causation. However it is something which certainly requires greater thought than you seem to be willing to afford it. You seem as intolerant and closed-minded as the monothestics you seem to want to want to rail against....funny that

That depression is not caused by homosexuality itself, but rather by the intolerance of a culture run by small minded bigots who constantly trot out the cannards that homosexuality is evil, and so is atheism/agnosticism.

any evidence for that? Or do you prefer opinions to facts?

 

[ImaginalDisc]

The claim was that *some* theists would become nilhilists/fatalists. One percent? Once percent of 5 billion being a significant number.

You said this:

I am speculating, but I base it on the fact that many religious people say that if they *weren't* religious, they'd be nihilistic or fatalistic. I think it's reasonable to believe them on that point.

"1%" does not constitute "many." Have you changed your claim, from "many" to "1%" or does "1%" equal "many," in your unique usage of the English language?

 

[ImaginalDisc]

I can certainly see how looking at depression in atheists/theists may be relevant to studying fatalism in the non-religious - can't you?

No, I don't. Consider what if, for a momment, such an in depth study were to conclude that people who folow the ancient Aztec Blood Cult experience the least depression? Would that be sufficent reason to give up rational thought and start performing human sacrifices to imaginary cannibal gods? I hope your response is, "no." Religions are, uniformly, delusion. Religions all lack a factual, rational basis. Even if religions are pleasant nonsense, they're still nonsense.

I've provided some evidence that those who are religious seem to be able to cope better with depression than those without religion. I'm sure the reasons for this are manifold - and it is true that it does not necessarily prove causation. However it is something which certainly requires greater thought than you seem to be willing to afford it. You seem as intolerant and closed-minded as the monothestics you seem to want to want to rail against....funny that

Don't try the turn around with me. Have you considered the possibility that the atheists and agnositcs who were studied were treated poorly by their counselors and therapists? I had a counselor once tell me that the root of all my problems is that I'm not religious. She wouldn't address any of my problems until I "accepted religion." How do you think a theist would respond if their therapist demmanded they give up religion?

any evidence for that? Or do you prefer opinions to facts?

You have no evidence of cuasation. I have evidence that atheists cannot join the boy Scouts, are the least trusted minority in the U.S.A., and that people all over this country loathe and despise atheists. Do you REALLY need me to provide you evidence that people hate atheists and agnostics? Have you been living under a rock?

 

[elliotfc]

You said this:

"1%" does not constitute "many." Have you changed your claim, from "many" to "1%" or does "1%" equal "many," in your unique usage of the English language?

Sure it does.

I think that 100,000 is a lot of people. I just do. I really do.

5 billion people. 1 percent. 50 million people. That's a lot of people.

About 3000 people died on 9/11. A lot of people, no?

If you scan back, I used a number of about 9 million people a few days ago, so I'm being completely consistent.

-Elliot

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Sure it does.

I think that 100,000 is a lot of people. I just do. I really do.

5 billion people. 1 percent. 50 million people. That's a lot of people.

About 3000 people died on 9/11. A lot of people, no?

If you scan back, I used a number of about 9 million people a few days ago, so I'm being completely consistent.

-Elliot

You're equivocating.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Elliot, do you still maintain that thiests who give up their insanity and delusion and become atheits and agnositcs would become nihilists and fatalists? If so, what proportion do you expect?

 

[andyandy]

Don't try the turn around with me. Have you considered the possibility that the atheists and agnositcs who were studied were treated poorly by their counselors and therapists? I had a counselor once tell me that the root of all my problems is that I'm not religious. She wouldn't address any of my problems until I "accepted religion." How do you think a theist would respond if their therapist demmanded they give up religion?

You had a bad experience with a counselor - and then extrapolate to suggest that this could be the reason for atheists being more likely to struggle with depression than those of a religous persuasion. Do you have any real evidence for this suggestion?

You have no evidence of cuasation. I have evidence that atheists cannot join the boy Scouts, are the least trusted minority in the U.S.A., and that people all over this country loathe and despise atheists. Do you REALLY need me to provide you evidence that people hate atheists and agnostics? have you been living under a rock?

No i've been living in the UK. People certainly don't hate atheists and agnostics here. Evidence of your somewhat narrow focus again? Where is your evidence that atheists can not join scouts? That's certainly not the case in the UK. Again you seem to operate within a rather narrow world-view.

You talk about how you want to use facts and not opinions, yet you offer nothing but opinion yourself.....I've provided some scientific studies on which i would hope we could base a objective discussion, and yet you try to dismiss them with anecdote, surely you can do better than that?

 

[elliotfc]

You're equivocating.

You're obsessed.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

Elliot, do you still maintain that thiests who give up their insanity and delusion and become atheits and agnositcs would become nihilists and fatalists? If so, what proportion do you expect?

I don't consider theism to be insanity or delusion. Pass.

-Elliot

 

[ImaginalDisc]

I don't consider theism to be insanity or delusion. Pass.

-Elliot

It's a belief maintained in spite of overwhelming evidence that it is false. Consult a dictionary if you need to be reminded about what a delusion is.