Of "In-Group" & "Race"

On the basis that we have absolutely no reason to know otherwise.

We do not understand what "intelligence" is. We do not know where it comes from. We cannot explain the mechanics that make us smarter than monkeys. How in the world could we begin to illuminate the mechanics that make us smarter than each other?


I have no idea. None whatsoever.

The point is... no one else has a clue, either.

Now go back and read Ariculette and Bpesta's posts closely. Do you get the sense from their posts that they recoginze that they have no answer to this question?

The simple lesson we all should have taken from kindergarten:

WE DON'T KNOW. And until we do know, we shouldn't say nasty things about other people.

We can explain none of the mechanics that make us smarter than monkeys? I agree with AmateurScientist here that that seems to be a rather extreme position.

It would be great if cognitive scientists could weigh in on this, because I acknowledge that I'm not an expert.

As for "not saying nasty things about other people" I couldn't disagree more. I'd rather people come up with testable theories and interpretations of the data, rather than shy away from certain proposed theories because others might think the proposed theory "says nasty things about other people".
 
You started this conversation assuming the "credentialed psychologists" were right. In fact, you assumed it so much you called AS a liar for presenting factual counter-evidence. You got flak, which you fully deserved.

I didn't assume credentialed psychologists were right. I'm a rather extreme skeptic. I'm not even certain you exist, my friend.:p

As for AS, I reserve the right to doubt an unverifiable anecdote, rather than accept it as "counter-evidence". And in any event, his anecdote actually supported the position you seem to think I take; he employed it to cast skepticism on your proposition that social expectations was driving a lower "g" for a social population rather than heritable genetics.

Now that you seem to be interested in the appropriate starting point, I think you deserve some credit, as well. (Not much, mind you. The Coyote has not gone touchy-feely here. :D )

I have made my case. Let's let the others respond, and see what you think of their arguments.

eh, what? I'm interested in the entire spectrum of this discussion. And always have been.
 
It does indeed affect your argument, inasmuch as you seem to assert the degree to which expectations play in performance. My point in offering such a powerful counterexample is that persons can and do overcome or disregard those social expectations and break free of them. My friend's family has amply done so. They are not alone.
There are an entire class of people who routinely escape all social influence. They are called "sociopaths."

:D

The point is that we already know that individuals can, for a variety of reasons, not be overly impacted by social expectation. Thus, examples of individuals who do escape them don't tell us anything new.

I'm taking issue with your apparent assertion that they are as determinative in cognitive performance as I think you're claiming.
I assert they are determinative on average, not on individuals. Since we are talking about average test scores, this is appropriate.

I think you're likely discounting the very real influence heritability has on cognitive capacity.
I am not discounting the influence of heritability. I am pointing out that we have no way of measuring that influence.

We simply lack the tools necessary to determine the difference between heritability and social expectation. Until we do have those tools, there is no point - and real harm - in pretending we do and having discussions as if we did.

That's why I said earlier that I think you are on one extreme of this sort of debate.
The position of "We shouldn't speculate until we have some real evidence" is always the extreme of every debate.

Those institutional programs reinforce the culture of lowered expectations for blacks and diminish or even discount the real accomplishments of black persons of significant achievement.
Why do you think whites accepted Affirmative Action? Because it gave them an excuse when a black man took their job. :D

I have mixed feelings about AA, too. All in all, I think it was an appropriate compromise, or at least not a bad one. I am open to the argument that it needs to be changed, though.

What I would like to see in its place is an investigative division like the FBI that only investigates racism. No more quotas, but if you really are racist in your hiring, then BAM! The Feds drop a hammer on your head.

I garauntee you corporations would much rather have quotas. :D

So does my friend's father, who refuses to apply for government contracts under Section 8(a)
Your exemplar overlooks an important detail: fifty years ago, he would have failed. AA was necessary, at least for a time. Now that we are starting to get examples like this, we should focus on them, and we should start to scale back AA.

I agree, but I think it's changed a lot more in the past four decades that you seem to acknowledge.
Of course it's changed dramatically. And not just for blacks, but for women. Just look at "Good Housekeeping" from 1955, and their article on how to be a good housewife (hint: keep your mouth shut and accept that you are less important).

But Dave is proof that it hasn't gone away. And until somebody can show that lower level of expecation is not able to account for the minor differences in test scores... I win. (Note this is a sucker's bet, because we do not know how to measure social expectation.)

What he seems to be incapable of believing, however, is that some black persons are capable of charging full speed ahead and ignoring and overcoming possible socially constructed barriers or lowered expectations.
Let's face it, that is a perfectly reasonable belief on Dave's part. Only someone who had a naive belief in the sterling quality of human nature would expect otherwise. The rest of us are realists. :D

I disagree with your Q.E.D. I don't think your social expectations theory is a complete explanation, or even close to complete.
The point is that it could be complete, and we cannot in good conscience rule it out. We do, after all, have compelling evidence of the power of social expectation (the gorilla).

It certainly doesn't allow for notable expections to the performance you would expect from it that my friend and her family manifest and represent.
Sure it does. Your friend's family is an outlier, no more damaging to my theory than Jeffery Dahmer.

Whom, I hasten to add, lies on the opposite side, of course.

:D
 
I have a feeling Yahzi would accuse you of falling into the socially constructed race bias trap as well.
Yep, I did.

I think he's got a nutty view of race.
My view of race is no more nuttier than my view of god.

I keep asking people, "exactly what do you mean the word?" And I keep getting different answers... often from the same people.

I don't know if he acknowledges the physical differences in female brains versus male brains,
Of course I do. I also know that if you hand a scientist two brains, and ask him which is female, he has a shot at determining that without recourse to genetic markers.

Is the same true of black vs white brains?

Why no... no it isn't.

Facts. They show up at the damndest times. :D

or whether he asserts that they are entirely socially constructed as well.
I recognize that there are people whose position might superfically sound like mine. However, I ask for the same courtesy we have extended the racists. Do not automatically lump me in the "socially constructed" arena because I noticed that some areas of human nature are in fact affected by social construction.

find those who deny a biological basis (whether it's genetic or morphological) to our observed differences in the sexes and/or "races,"
If sex and race had the same level of meaning, I would agree with you.

However, you may have noticed that throughout this interminable thread, no one has actually proposed a single, unified, unambigous, and scientifically universally accepted classification of race.

Compare that to the scientific classification of sex.

I'm no professional in the field, but my own lay observations and casual postulations are very much in line with your own.
Obviously I took away a rather different message. I'm prepared to be demonstrated wrong, however.
 
Don't take my word for it. Do the research. Look it up yourself.

You will be amazed at what you don't find.

So you're suggesting that apes are less intelligent than humans for cultural reasons?
 
If we're classifying by eye then my nieces, both sisters born to the same two parents, might be considered as two separate races by many observers. And the aforementioned Australian natives would be classified as belonging to African races by many observers as well.
Hybrids are obviously difficult to categorize. I'm not sure which "aforementioned Australian natives" you are refering to. In my eyes an Australian Aboriginie is easily distinguished from Africans.
Once more from Cavalli-Sforza The History and Geography of Human Genes:

"It may be objected that the racial stereotypes have a consistency that allows even the layman to classify individuals. But the major stereotypes, all based on skin color, hair color and form, and facial traits, reflect superficial differences that are not confirmed by deeper analysis with more reliable genetic traits and whose origin dates from recent evolution mostly under the effect of climate and perhaps sexual selection."
Of course they are mostly superficial differences. All humans are afterall the same species. I don't see the relevance of this statement to the discussion of races.
From Wikipedia:

Important difference between species and subspecies.
Subspecies: a taxonomic subdivision of a species. A group of organisms whose behavior and/or genetically encoded morphological and physiological characteristics differ from those of other members of their species. Members of different subspecies of the same species are potentially capable of breeding with each other and of producing fertile offspring. However, animals of different species may not interbreed even if there is no geographical impediment.


(Bolding mine)
Yes. And?
Again from Wikipedia:
The International Code of Zoological Nomenclature (4th edition, 2000) does not attempt to codify any "infrasubspecific entities" (e.g. human races).
I would be surprised if it did.
Dog breeds have been artificially selected in a manner that humans have not. As always, analogy is imperfect, but a much better analogy for humans than domestic dog breeds would be North American wolf populations.
Humans have been selected naturally by nature. As have almost all other animals with susbspecies on this planet. Why would the manner whereby the subspecies was arrived at, matter?
The phylogenetic study of the two white rhino subspecies indicates that they have been separated for over 2 million years. Anthropologists think humans migrated from Africa as recently as 70,000 years ago.

Steven
See above.
 
Dr. Kitten, are you listening?

The social theory of race is exactly what I said it is.
Sigh. Once again, Yahzi, could you explain this "social theory of race" which you are so fond of talking about (contrary to anyone else, I might add). Please include it's relevance to the current discussion. Thanks.
 
Yahzi.

You should try publishing your criticisms of g and IQ testing in a peer reviewed journal.

I suggest "intelligence".

I would love to read what the editor and reviewers say about your characterization of the science in the field.

Really, though, if it is as bad as you say, then I think an engineer should step up and school these experimental psychologists...If you're remotely valid in your points, they would be obligated to publish it.

It could be eye opening and revolutionary for those in the field. I'd bet arthur jensen would like to know that his life's work is so shoddy that reasonable people can smugly dismiss it without having read it.

C'mon, do it! We need a paradigm shift.
 
1. The analogy is deeply flawed. The physical components you described are generally controlled by one or two genes. The fuzzy terms you described are manifestly not. Hence, your analogy is already in deep trouble.

2. You completely dodged the point. There are multiple paths to dark skin; there are multiple genetic populations that are dark-skinned. Those populations are not all more closely linked to each other than some of them are to light-skinned people.

My point was that the social theory of race is that black people share a common heritage; not that people of a common heritage share black skin. Would you care to address this point?

I'm sorry I didn't get back earlier...I was having computer problems...as I mentioned before, physical components are not controlled by one or two genes...consider people who "look Italian" or "Jewish"--it's not particularly relevant and can be wrong--but most people will have an idea of what you mean. I absolutely agree that skin color is hardly indicative of heritage or I.Q. There are many white Africans and there are dark skinned native peoples all over the world--in New Zealand, Africa, Haiti, the Amazon, etc. These people are genetically diverse and are not any more related to eacother no matter how similar we might perceive their looks then any other breeding population that has been isolated for some time. I don't think that one could make a case that as skin color get darker, "g" increases/decreases. Smart dark skinned people tend to have smart dark skinned kids...and dumb light skinned people tend to have dumb light skinned kids. But when a breeding population has been separated for any length of time or assortive mating of like kind is encouraged--you get groups of people who are drawing their genes from the same gene pool....and the genes that work best in that environment are the ones that will be more widely dispersed in that gene pool.

The ancestry that people identifiy themselves with is what is used most commonly in genetic counseling. We know that people who identify themselves as African American are more likely to carry sickel cell trait, etc.
Family History is important too. And physical features and anomolies often lead us to test for other types of mutations.

I would never underplay the elephant in the room--expectation plays a major role in how people perform in many areas. When they randomly told teachers that certain children were expected to blossom this year in school according to some test they all took-those children blossomed. The children were chosen at random--so it must have been the teachers expectations (and thus extra encouragement?) that resulted in those childrens' achievement.

However, all achievement is constrained by reality--some things come easier or sooner to some people rather than others. We have a pretty good grasp at what those things might be by studying infants, identical twins, adopted children in racially diverse homes, etc. We know that the American population in general shows a mixture of genes prominent in Asian subpopulations and prominent in African subpopulations--including blood type.
We have a good idea of where many of these alleles originated and populations in the originating area tend to show up more in allele frequency (whether is B blood or something else). The American gene mixture is thought to have resulted from Native American populations that came over the Bearing Straight from Asia and entered North America on the west--the African mix is primarily from Europeans who came over and entered on the east. Europeans show primarily a northern heritage out of Africa--the Asians from a population that moved Eastward. Skin got lighter as people moved northwards presumably because such people needed less protection from the sun and lighter skin to absorb vitamin D more readily from whatever sun they got. As populations diverged, the genes important to the reproductive success of the migrating populations became more freqent in the groups. Whenever there is a difference between Asian populations and African populations, Americans tend to fall in the middle. This is true for the age at which children take their first steps...and it may also be true for sprinting speeds. I've heard it's true for penis size. It's true for blood grouping percentages too. When we find the genes or alleles associated with these differences it allows us to trace a pretty good route of our own ancestors and heritage especially when we know where the different alleles are most frequent.

I apologize if I over-simplified--I was trying to make a simple point--mental characteristics also have genetic analogs just as physical characteristics do. Even such things as "perfect pitch" and rotating objects in the head, and vocabulary, and rhythm show up as having genetic components. That is why we might see similarities in groups. I never meant to imply that melanin producing pigments abundants in dark skinned people are responsible for decreased scores on "g" in black populations. That is ludicrous. Black skin has nothing to do with mental capabilities. But the group of people you share most of your ancestry with, most certainly does. All children are born with a mixture of genes that made their more recent ancestors reproductively successful. If social boldness was a key to your ancestors survival--you have a good chance of inheriting whatever genes are associated with such a trait (dopamine receptors for one)--flirty? Aggressive? Able to size up a situation quickly? Analytical? Musically gifted? These tendencies also show an inheritance component. Everybody can refine what they have--not everybody as equal potential for superiority in any given area. And groups as a whole can never define a single person any more than hearing a title of a book can tell you all you need to know about it. But categories and tendencies can be useful guides in finding genes associated with measurable attributes.

Has this been corrected - or even compared against - the fact that people raised by math geniuses are more likely to become math geniuses?

Has anyone ever even asked that question?

But in the absence of any research, you'll just assume you know the answer.

As always, the discounting of social expectation is automatic and unyielding. Because accounting for it robs the theory of race of any pretense of validity, and renders its baseless speculation obvious.


Do you know what a "just-so" story is? You might want to look the term up.

In the absence of evidence, your stories are no more informative than Kipling's tales, and considerably less entertaining.

Yes, I know what "just so" theories are. And they can be abused. But they can also be valuable. We know that pregnant women are likely to be nauseated in early pregnancy--in fact, we find this is often the sign of a healthy pregnancy--a nauseated women is less likely to miscarry than a woman who experiences no nausea. Freudian analysis might come up with a "just so" story that nausea is do to a hidden displeasure at being pregnant. But evolutionary psychology suggests that nausea induces an aversion to certain substances during the time when the neuronal gowth of the fetal brain is at it's most important phases--it makes sense evolutionarily for a woman to avoid certain substances as calorie needs are low during early pregnancy--so the nausea may have a selection advantage--(nauseated women were less likely to damage offspring via toxic substances?). And there have been tests designed to determine if this is the case (which you can freely read about on line if you care to--)and they are gathering data which are increasingly supporting this idea. So you see, tests can be designed to address the elephant in the room. You can say, how can we be sure these women aren't secretly disgusted at being pregnant and design your test accordingly. You can do the same when testing most anything provided you define what it is you are trying to guard against. If you want to understand if a child's sense of being black affects I.Q. scores then you design a test to do so (and there are such tests...and perception of one's race does influence some test results...and even black people pick up negative black stereotypes.) But there are tests where black parents have both biological and adopted children. Again the test scores of the biological parents are predictive of the biological offspring--but the adopted offspring, no matter what the race or environment are more strongly associated with parental I.Q. and not the I.Q. of the siblings.

If your contention is that there is no way to design such tests to make sure there is no confirmation bias in the results, then you are mistaken. We are endeavoring to do so more and more and certain phenotypic characteristics can be associated with certain mental characteristics...and some of this is no doubt due to genetic and congenital components. Nurture can always make a difference--but I think people are confused about what they can and can't change and what they can and can't influence. And I understand how readily people could use this to discriminate or for other nefarious purposes. It used to be thought that if your raised a male and female identically, you'd get very similar results. But there are differences between those that have two X chromosomes and those that have XY--overlapping differences...but differences none the less. Shall we pretend it's not there or speculative or worthless or sexist to be interested in those differences?

I'm not blind to the elephant in the room. But you might be blind to the benefits--you said that the proof for race is like the proof for god--I'd suggest an alternative analogy. Your refusal to accept the fuzzy knowledge we have is like someone refusing to acknowledge the growing reasons we have for not believing in god--they scream, "god is unknowable; you can't test god"--you're saying "race doesn't mean anything, so we shouldn't use it to try and understand anything about human differences that might be noticed in groups of people".

I don't care what you call it--but understanding any given persons' (or any living things) recent ancestral history can be very edifying and useful. It is how we are piecing the whole history of life on this planet together. The entitites that exist have genes that worked for their most immediate ancestors. Some genes have remained barely altered through time--they are essential for life (we share them with most animals and insects)--others are prone to rapid changes--these tend to be related to physical aspects, mental details, and the immune system--these are essential for evolution...our closest ancestors share more of these genes with us than more distant relatives.

I personally decline to state race....or I put other or "African American" when asked to check a box--because all humanity comes out of Africa. I, understand that it's a contentious term and I understand why. Atheist is a contentious term too. But contentious terms can still be useful in understanding concepts. Rather than caim such testing is impossible and useless--it might be more beneficial to examine such tests and point out flaws you notice that might invalidate the results and offer suggestions as to what sort of testing might be better at predicting what "g" can predict--or any other test of cognitive abilities.
 
Note that with the pygmalion effect, all that changed was grades, which are influenced by human bias. It is possible that ability causes expectation versus vice versa.

Show me that expectations can raise IQ in the long run (see head start for an example...).
 
Don't take my word for it. Do the research. Look it up yourself.

You will be amazed at what you don't find.

I don't think you looked--there is much about the brain differences between apes and humans and genetics and cognitive abilities--in fact, Scientific American had a whole magazine on becoming human just last month. But here are a few more if you are actually interested. But if you want to believe there is no research on the topic, feel free.

http://www.biopsychology.com/index.php?descType=always&type=chapter&id=6&page=0
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/09/060910143629.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/08/060801231359.htm
http://cognews.com/index_htmlhttp://cognews.com/index_html
http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/060831_braingene_copies.html
http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20041129182724data_trunc_sys.shtml
http://www.uchospitals.edu/news/2004/20041229-brain-evolution.html
http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2006/07/10-questions-for-steven-pinker.php
http://www.yerkes.emory.edu/DIV/Preuss/2004PreussCaceresNRG.pdf
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1065704
http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2006/08/index.html
http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2006/08/index.html
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=84605
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13989908/site/newsweek/

And what can be measured amongst species can be refined and measured amongst subspecies.

http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/060831_braingene_copies.html

Perhaps it would be better to refer to people in regards to known "founder mutations"--it can be very useful in understanding differences so that we can address them with solutions that are viable and not waste time, money, and effort on programs that fail--like abstinance programs...which don't seem to realize that the sex drive evolved not to be particularly subject to reason and control

Understanding what we can and can't change gives us clues as to where to look to address problems. Talents can be enhanced--disabilities can be mitigated...weaknesses can be strengthed, losses can be compensated for.
 
Note that with the pygmalion effect, all that changed was grades, which are influenced by human bias. It is possible that ability causes expectation versus vice versa.

Show me that expectations can raise IQ in the long run (see head start for an example...).

I know about head start. There are some people, however, for whom it seems to make a difference. It does not raise "g", but it does allow for better development of inate talents...and there are increases in school performance which may offer some of the benefits of higher g. We haven't found a good way to elevate "g" in individuals. And, though there is much overlap, there is a difference in "g" between self identified races. But "g" is not the only predictor of success. Taller people are more likely to be chosen as leaders and they make more money on average--but height is not the be all and end all for success--and though height is genetically determined--the way people boost those of taller stature in their own minds (the way they boost the more attractive) is what is allowing such people greater "success"--height is not correlated with "g"...but height is correlated with success as is "g". (Correlation--not causation--but still interesting and worth studying.)
 
quoting articulet


Taller people are more likely to be chosen as leaders and they make more money on average--but height is not the be all and end all for success--and though height is genetically determined--the way people boost those of taller stature in their own minds (the way they boost the more attractive) is what is allowing such people greater "success"--height is not correlated with "g"...but height is correlated with success as is "g". (Correlation--not causation--but still interesting and worth studying.)


It's counter-intuitive to read that height doesn't correlate positively with g, just like it would be counterintuitive to hear that symmetric features doesn't correlate positively with g. If g is heritable and confers a reproductive advantage, one would think the people with higher g's would seek out tall people and people with symmetric features to reproduce with, because they also confer social (and hence reproductive) advantages.

Is there an error in my reasoning here, or is there something I'm missing?
 
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I know about head start. There are some people, however, for whom it seems to make a difference. It does not raise "g", but it does allow for better development of inate talents...and there are increases in school performance which may offer some of the benefits of higher g. We haven't found a good way to elevate "g" in individuals. And, though there is much overlap, there is a difference in "g" between self identified races. But "g" is not the only predictor of success. Taller people are more likely to be chosen as leaders and they make more money on average--but height is not the be all and end all for success--and though height is genetically determined--the way people boost those of taller stature in their own minds (the way they boost the more attractive) is what is allowing such people greater "success"--height is not correlated with "g"...but height is correlated with success as is "g". (Correlation--not causation--but still interesting and worth studying.)

Articulett. What you said here makes sense-- I agree.

Sorry if I came across as snarky, but I'm used to debating people who deny IQ even exists, or could possibly vary among individuals, or could possibly be reliably and validly measured.

So, I gets a bit defensive-- but consider, this might be one of the smartest boards on the net. Given most of us are materialists / skeptics / show me the data types, I'm surprised at how many ignore (or won't bother reading) something like 100 years of research in the field.

If the detractors here are right, then the Ph.D.s who've devoted their lives to studying this would have to be quite stupid.

I'd dare say Arthur Jensen was / is a better scientist than Gould.

I was gonna link to an article by jensen called "jensen on jensenism" but I cannot find it. Instead, check this out-- the prologue to the "intelligence" special issue devoted to Jensen:

http://home.comcast.net/~neoeugenics/jensenism.htm

There was a point here somewhere. Ah, read the typical article published in intelligence. I think you will find the science top notch!
 
Interesting link, bpesta--I'm not actively reading in this area much and the only reference to Jensen I can remember are the schooling/race/desegregation ones, and those always referenced second-hand. I'm very curious now to read his writings. Would you recommend the 1998 book on "g" as a good place to start?
 
Why do you think whites accepted Affirmative Action? Because it gave them an excuse when a black man took their job. :D

I have mixed feelings about AA, too. All in all, I think it was an appropriate compromise, or at least not a bad one. I am open to the argument that it needs to be changed, though.

What I would like to see in its place is an investigative division like the FBI that only investigates racism. No more quotas, but if you really are racist in your hiring, then BAM! The Feds drop a hammer on your head.

We do have a governmental agency that investigates racism. It's called the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. It's swamped. Unfortunately, most of the charges of racial discrimination filed with it are unfounded, or at least unsubstantiated. "Racism" is far too easily charged, and actual incidents of overt racism are very difficult to spot due to the low signal-to-noise ratio. It's a real shame, actually, that a**holes toss the term around so casually; they do their brothers and sisters a tremendous disservice.

Probably much more powerful than the EEOC in keeping businesses from practicing overt racism, however, are the private agents enforcing their own brand of anti-racism. The two most prominent practitioners of this style are Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. These men are unemployed, yet they live very well-to-do lifestyles. How? They are professional shakedown artists. They extort hundreds of millions of dollars from large corporations with cheap accusations of racist employment practices, and they take a healthy cut from the settlements resulting from those charges for themselves (oh, excuse me, for their "foundations"). In many instances, those two are probably guilty of practicing law without a license. They get away with it by calling themselves "spokespersons" and because no one wants to call them on it and be on the receiving end of their shakedowns.

Am I cynical about casual charges of widespread overt racism in the workplace? You bet. In my private practice of law I quit seriously entertaining taking cases in which my potential clients claimed racism long ago. That's because I kept getting calls claiming that racism was behind their firings from menial jobs at McDonald's and the like. After about the 40th time of looking into them and finding nothing to substantiate their claims, I grew uninterested in taking any more of those calls. Why? Because every single time I investigated further, it turns out the firings were the result of insubordination, excessive absenteeism, or poor performance on the part of the fired employee. I got jaded and tired of listening to the noise and trying to find a signal. Just because you're black and you lose your job doesn't mean your former employer is guilty of firing you due to racism. That's especially true when about 80% of your remaining fellow employees (including management) are black.

Your exemplar overlooks an important detail: fifty years ago, he would have failed. AA was necessary, at least for a time. Now that we are starting to get examples like this, we should focus on them, and we should start to scale back AA.

Too bad facts have to get in the way, right? It turns out that Thornton Stanley, the man in the family I've been referring to, began his construction business with his own money in a spare bedroom of his house in my city in Alabama way back in 1961. That was 45 years ago, so that puts the humble beginnings of his entrepreneurial venture squarely in the pre-Civil Rights Act of 1964 era.

He is now one of the top 20 general contractors in the state and well-to-do. As I mentioned above, he won the national Small Business Person of the Year award in 2001, and President Bush presented him the award at a special ceremony at the White House. Stanley's success is due to his willingness to roll up his sleeves and get his own fingernails dirty, his strong drive and ambition, his persistence, his commitment to keeping his customers happy and satisfied, and his own vision, intelligence, personal charm, and hard work. He did it right smack in the Heart of Dixie, and he just happens to be black, but he doesn't dwell on that. He didn't fail, as you claim he should have.

But Dave is proof that it hasn't gone away. And until somebody can show that lower level of expecation is not able to account for the minor differences in test scores... I win. (Note this is a sucker's bet, because we do not know how to measure social expectation.)

I disagree, but it's due only to my own speculation. I think parental influence is probably far more important than the pressures/influences from the larger society as a whole in one's formative years. For any given child, the absence of a strong parental influence leads to a vacancy in that role. By default, societal pressures then play a more prominent role in the child's development, or lack thereof. This may account for much of the measured discrepencies in the average black versus average white test scores. A lesser proportion of black children grow up in healthy, stable, two-parent homes than do white children. Hell, I suspect a lesser proportion of single parent homes with black children versus those with white children have mothers or single fathers who have the time and resources to spend being the strong parental influence the children need. Unfortunately, for such children, negative societal and cultural influences likely play a more prominent role in shaping their futures than they do for comparable white children.

That's not social expectation. It's social and cultural circumstance.

Change that circumstance and I suspect very strongly that you'll change those test averages for the better too.

(BTW, my friend's parents are still married and living together. As I mentioned earlier, theirs is a strong, tightly bound family, and I have no doubt that fact played a tremendous role in the success of all four children in their formative years and beyond).

The point is that it could be complete, and we cannot in good conscience rule it out. We do, after all, have compelling evidence of the power of social expectation (the gorilla).

Too bad there's so much compelling scientific evidence that heritability plays a large role in determining one's cognitive capacity. That means your theory is incomplete as an explanation.

Sure it does. Your friend's family is an outlier, no more damaging to my theory than Jeffery Dahmer.

It depends on what you mean by outlier. Are they at one end of a continuum of personal academic and professional success? Of course. They would be for any family, regardless of racial identity or ethnic background, and regardless of where they live. Are they freaks of circumstance? No way. My city has several other successful black-owned businesses (another prominent one for example, one with over 650 employees, is owned by NFL Hall of Famer John Stallworth, one of our native sons), and it happens to be a friendly environment for entrepreneurs, especially in high-tech industries. Thirty miles away is a sister city that is the original home of a black female astronaut who flew on a Space Shuttle mission in 1992 (although she actually grew up in Chicago). She attended Stanford University on an academic scholarship at age 16, and later became a medical doctor before she was an astronaut.

Someone with Dave's apparent prejudices might have a hard time believing that my city and its metro area has a fair number of black engineers and other high tech persons, but it does. I hate to break it to him, but my city has a substantial black middle and upper-middle class, including black doctors, lawyers, judges, and educators, and one can easily find plenty of black persons driving late model Mercedes and BMWs around town. Then again, we have the highest per capita income of any city in the southeastern US, including Atlanta.

So much for expectations about black persons in the deep south.

AS
 
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I lived in Prince Georges County, Maryland for 2 years. There were places there I couldn't afford to live. I moved to Ann Arundel County, and couldn't afford it either. I think Blackness or Whiteness has less to do with $$ in the sense of the housing market than it does with attitudes and social norms. My notions of "race" such as they were, were deconstructed completely by meeting and greeting and teaching and learning in these sorts of places.

I would much rather ride the Metro to DC, and that includes all races/colors, than go to some suburban ******** mall like Arundel Mills and see a bunch of understimulated white kids making their own fun. IMHO of course, and that is why I'm interested. Somehow I felt more like "live and let live" was alive at the Howard U. or Eastern Market or Dupont Circle, vs. driving to Arundel Mills.
 
quoting articulet


Taller people are more likely to be chosen as leaders and they make more money on average--but height is not the be all and end all for success--and though height is genetically determined--the way people boost those of taller stature in their own minds (the way they boost the more attractive) is what is allowing such people greater "success"--height is not correlated with "g"...but height is correlated with success as is "g". (Correlation--not causation--but still interesting and worth studying.)


It's counter-intuitive to read that height doesn't correlate positively with g, just like it would be counterintuitive to hear that symmetric features doesn't correlate positively with g. If g is heritable and confers a reproductive advantage, one would think the people with higher g's would seek out tall people and people with symmetric features to reproduce with, because they also confer social (and hence reproductive) advantages.

Is there an error in my reasoning here, or is there something I'm missing?

Nope...no error in reasoning...I just don't know that the studies have been done. (Plus, I have observation bias--I'm "petite"--and I've known a slew of tall "dumb" jocks :) ) I wonder if any such studies have been done. Good nutrition has a positive benefit on total height...and on g too--but not a lot--and not any at all once you have met adequacy standards.
 
I think the better question, once one is willing to go for "g" as a construct, is probably likely to follow an advantage angle. What would the smarter male do, what would the smarter female do, in a really primitive social situation?

(Oh, I went to some fraternity/sorority situations, I guess I have an answer.)

The main question then is "what are you"?? Theta Chi seemed to get you laid now and again. Delta Chi were all jocks back then. Lotsa those gals didn't seem happy with the game but all we seemed to do was drink keg beer and stand around.
 

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