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Buildings must fall straight down? Nonsense.

Are you asserting that an army of 5,000 workers ran wild through the most heavily used office towers in the world, tearing down walls, shredding cieling tiles and carpets, using torches to cut through structural beams and planting explosive charges and then patching it all up again without ANYONE noticing or complaining. Especially after ot all went off on 9-11?
 
My demeanor? I've said controversial things, i realize, but i've not called anyone any names, or been disrespectful in any way. The same cannot be said for many of you guys, but that's OK, I have a thick skin. Let me find the places where i stood corrected.

these guys just fall back on name calling and the like
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Sword was fallacious
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Default you're being silly.
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Default confused
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Ooh, nice picture Default.
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Hello? Is this thing on?
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Andrew, who at the time was using the name Gumboot,
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default propagandized
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Apathoid argued
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kc wondered
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Pardalis self-deified
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PM will debate the kids, but have refused to debate grownups
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That's ignoring the evidence in front of you, Kent. ...Anyone else want to embarrass themselves and claim to see falling debris around the south tower flash?
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I'll try again to spoon feed you my point, again
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Any of you brave souls want to go on record on this one
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apathoid wondered
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Again, don't complain, this was hundreds of posts ago. ... Ha, absurd, I say. But NIST says so. And so do you OCTs.
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This is farcical.
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Would you like me to go back further chronologically?
 
My demeanor? I've said controversial things, i realize, but i've not called anyone any names, or been disrespectful in any way. The same cannot be said for many of you guys, but that's OK, I have a thick skin. Let me find the places where i stood corrected.
Hmm.

Well, in your brief period here, you've not exactly been a model citizen. For instance, there's this post:
TruthSeeker1234 said:
In the meantime, do you guys at least have the intellectual honesty to admit that no steel framed skyscraper has ever collapsed from fire?
Or perhaps this one is more insidious, where you begin a new thread as a direct challenge to a fellow forum member, and then subtly alter his quote.

Your little jabs around people's quotes are less than cute sometimes, like here -- "Pardalis self-deified"?? Are you serious?

In response to me, there's this tidbit:
TruthSeeker1234 said:
Mackey, what's your take on this? More name calling and shouting? Are you still figuring out how the cross bracing got onto the core structure in the rubble after the construction guys removed it 30 years ago?
So go ahead and find me "name calling" and "shouting," if you can. And while you're at it, you never did answer my questions about your picture.

Lastly, this golden oldie, where you baldly attack my "credibility" on your fourth or fifth post.

If you're willing to start an actual debate, I'm perfectly willing to look beyond all of this. Heck, lots of people here toss barbs, and I'm not above it myself. But in your case, the ratio of abuse to content has not been promising. Don't pretend otherwise. mmm'kay?

ETA: EEK! Looks like we're piling on, doesn't it? Darn cross-posts.
 
Why you're right. They do mention squibs. I stand corrected. The pages in my PDF viewer were not displaying correctly. I could only get to that page by searching for the word squib. Still no learning there, just assertions. A little hard to take seriously a pdf that just fabricates falsehoods about Dr. Jones.

Cite the falsehood.
 
Anyone care to discuss the topic of this one, which is supporting/debunking the claim that buildings must fall straight down.

Yes.

I say that asymmetrical column loss will cause a building to fall toward that side. I have supplied nice evidence.

This point is not in controversy. What is in controversy, and you have not proven, was that building 7 did not collapse so.

I say the behavior of WTC7 indicates that all of the vertical supports failed at the same time.

A link to another building falling is not proof of this. If I were to treat your thread here hermetically, then all you have proven is that, indeed, buildings fall asymmetrically when they are damaged asymmetrically. You must now prove, within the scope of this thread, that building 7's behavior was consistent with controlled demolition. You must also prove your assertion that all vertical supports failed at the same time. I don't even need a link. Merely give me a reasonable analysis. Prove to me your unqualified understanding of building performances. Support it with links if you must.
 
the whole PHD thing, its been discussed here

Ah, obviously we need to get the definition of libel into this thread then:
In law, defamation is a right of action for communicating statements that may harm an individual's reputation or character. The common law origins of defamation lie in the torts of slander (harmful statement in a transitory form, esp. speech) and libel (harmful statement in a fixed medium, esp. writing but also a picture, sign, or electronic broadcast), each which give a common law rights of action.

"Defamation" is the general term used internationally, and is used in this article where it is not necessary to distinguish between "slander" and "libel". Libel is defamation that is published, but can also happen in other forms, such as effigy, a motion picture, or a statue; slander refers to any verbal, unpublished, defamation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libel

The correction made to the article which erroneously removed Jones' PhD, and has since been corrected, is not libel.

Additionally, you suggestion that this is ground for dismissing the entire article is a form of ad hom.
 
Anyone care to discuss the topic of this one, which is supporting/debunking the claim that buildings must fall straight down. I say that asymmetrical column loss will cause a building to fall toward that side. I have supplied nice evidence. I say the behavior of WTC7 indicates that all of the vertical supports failed at the same time.


A building must not fall straight down. A building has a strong tendency to fall straight down, because, gee, that's the direction gravity is pulling it. For a building NOT to fall straight down, sufficient force must be acting to divert the movement of its mass to a sideways motion. Such a force must have something to act on, some sufficiently strong structure to transfer a force that can divert the thousands of tons of mass in a direction different from that of the pull of gravity.

In a controlled demolition, it is possible to make the building fall to one side, by carefully designing the sequence of blasts to weaken the structure sequentially without weakening it so much that it cannot deflect the vertical pressure of gravity.

It is not a necessity for a building, that is for any reason collapsing, to fall straight down, but it is the default scenario. Since it is also the desired result in most demolitions, the actual collapse of a building will be usually be sililar to a controlled demolition, but that is not a sign of a demolition.

The signs of a controlled demolition are:

1) Somebody has a reason to make it.
2) Somebody has to prepare for it. This involves machining of structual elements to pre-weaken them. Positioning of numerous (often hundreds of) explosive charges. Wiring of detonators.
3) Somebody has to detonate the explosive charges. This requires the wiring to be intact and functioning. The detonations will create noise, flashes, and squibs in a regular pattern prior to the collapse.
4) If the demolition is to look like a spontaneous collapse, somebody has to dig through the wreckage and remove remains of charges, detonators and wiring. They also have to remove such parts of structural elements that show signs of machining to weaken them.

Now Truthseeker1234, please answer the following questions:

1) For what purpose would perpetrators demolish WTC7?

2) Which signs, apart from the building falling stright down, and a couple of squib-like appearances after the collapse had started, point to the collapse of WTC7 being a controlled demolition?

Hans
 
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Hans, with due respect, you seem to not consider the 2nd law of thermodynamics. It is symmetry which requires skill and special circumstances. Asymmetrical behavior is always more likely than symmetrical. WTC7 goes very straight down, careening to the south at the end. But to drop into free fall, straingt down, requires that all the vertical supports fail at the same time, or at least that a great majority of them fail in a symmetrical pattern. An asymmetrical failure of columns, by whatever etiology, will produce either

1) part of the building remaining standing
2) the building toppling to the side, as observed in the demolition linked at the top of the thread.

Hans asked
1) For what purpose would perpetrators demolish WTC7?
Good question. Doubtful that the perps intended to just pull it at 5:20 for no reason. Either a plane was supposed to hit that one too, after the towers were out of the way. Or, it was supposed to drop when the North Tower dust cloud was flowing. Plenty of super-secret stuff in there, with the CIA, FBI, and Giuliani's command center.

2) Which signs, apart from the building falling stright down, and a couple of squib-like appearances after the collapse had started, point to the collapse of WTC7 being a controlled demolition?

That's kind of like asking, "other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play??"

WTC7 dropped in about 6.5 seconds.

On the west end of the north face, the windows blow out in an upward sequence.

THere is a tornado like plume of smoke and debris that exits the top of the building.

Steel was recovered that had been partly evaporated.

The steel had a "swiss cheese" appearance from a eutectic reaction. This is when a chemical (sulfur in this case) is added to a reaction causing its melting point to lower.

It looked exactly like a controlled demolition, which we know have happened many times before, whereas complete straight down collapses of steel framed buildings have never occured for any other reason ever.

Other than that, (and the Silverstein quote), not much.
 
But yes, the towers appeared to explode outwards in all directions, very similar in appearance to a picture of a nuke I've seen. Mushroom cloud and all.

And with this comment you confirm yourself to be certifiable. Bravo.


But I digress. This is about how WTC7 went straight down, with almost perfect symmetry, despite random fires and asymmetrical damage.


Tell that to the owners of 30 West Broadway. Your continuing refusal to look at reality is pathetic.

-Andrew
 
It looked exactly like a controlled demolition, which we know have happened many times before, whereas complete straight down collapses of steel framed buildings have never occured for any other reason ever.


Hah!

Certain European football stadiums have a tendency to fall straight down when they collapse due to over-loading. The Kader Toy Factory fell straight down (fire).


Other than that, (and the Silverstein quote), not much.

The other day I overheard a dancer talking to a reporter.
"I was talking to my shoe-maker the other day," the petite dancer explained to the reporter. "He wasn't sure my ballet shoes would be ready in time for the final night of the competitions.
"I told him, I'd earned so many points already, maybe the best thing was to just go ahead and do the tango."
The reporter scrawled rapidly.
"And so we went, and we did the tango."

Later that night it finally hit me. to "do" is slang to kill someone. And "Tango" is of course slang for a terrorist. It was all so clear. The dancer had been involved in the assassination of a suspected terrorist. I never visited that dance hall again.

-Andrew
 
Hans, with due respect, you seem to not consider the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

BAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

*deep breaths*

AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!


It looked exactly like a controlled demolition

It did not, quit lying.

which we know have happened many times before, whereas complete straight down collapses of steel framed buildings have never occured for any other reason ever, unless they were struck by thousands of tons of falling steel and concrete.

Correction provided free of charge.
 
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Hans, with due respect, you seem to not consider the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
Eh, no. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics states (among other things) that it is reversibility that is special, not symmetry. Symmetry is omnipresent thanks to Newton's Third Law.

Having said that, few things in Nature, especially something as complex as a major building collapse, will be truly symmetric. It just depends on how symmetric we need it to be.

WTC7 goes very straight down, careening to the south at the end. But to drop into free fall, straingt down, requires that all the vertical supports fail at the same time, or at least that a great majority of them fail in a symmetrical pattern.
There's a real danger of this becoming a semantic argument. While it didn't topple over, I don't feel that WTC 7 fell all that symmetrically. The NIST Interim WTC 7 report which I imagine you've seen proposes a mechanism which, due to the building's construction, leads to an implosion-style collapse that might be interpreted as somewhat symmetrical. Seems to make sense to me.

WTC7 dropped in about 6.5 seconds.
Check my NIST reference, page 27. Your number is off. They give a detailed sequence of 8.2 seconds from first signs to initiation of global collapse, so perhaps 15 seconds for the whole thing to come crashing down.

On the west end of the north face, the windows blow out in an upward sequence.

THere is a tornado like plume of smoke and debris that exits the top of the building.

Steel was recovered that had been partly evaporated.
Please cite these, I haven't heard such claims. Not saying you're wrong, just I don't know where you got this from.

The steel had a "swiss cheese" appearance from a eutectic reaction. This is when a chemical (sulfur in this case) is added to a reaction causing its melting point to lower.
If you're referring to the FEMA steel observations, I addressed this for another newcomer in this post. There is unarguable evidence that the melting point of the mixture was not reached, and the "eutectic reaction" (that's not standard terminology) was a chemical one. While interesting, there's no way this was a deliberate act.

It looked exactly like a controlled demolition, which we know have happened many times before, whereas complete straight down collapses of steel framed buildings have never occured for any other reason ever.
It didn't look like a controlled demolition to PROTEC. Nor to me, either. And need I point out that the firefighters standing near the building heard it crack, watched it lean, and even measured it over the course of several hours?

Other than that, (and the Silverstein quote), not much.
This one always cracks me up. Look, even if Larry Silverstein had said "Hey, guys, get the heck away from that place, because I've got bombs rigged on every floor -- here goes!" and pulled out a doohickey, pushed a button, and the whole tower instantly collapsed, it still wouldn't prove that the place was demolished on purpose. Though I would be somewhat suspicious.

There's simply no evidence of bombs. There is, however, evidence of massive impact damage, huge unfought fires, and gradual material weakening leading to what NIST calls "classic progressive collapse" (page 6 of the interim reports).
 
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Just because I like to watch Lieteller squirm, here's a great (by that I mean high quality) shot of WTC7 getting smashed by a debris plume weighing thousands of tons:

35931734.91104.jpg


Please tell us your thoughts on this photograph wich proves your entire theory about WTC7 wrong, Lieteller?
 
Poor little troofseeker.

Same M.O. as always.

Still no facts or evidence.

Still not a single indication that s/he has any scientific (or reality) grounding whatsoever. Notice that as much as s/he pretends to have a clue and pretends to be an expert on numerous subjects, s/he is incapable of responding to any questions whatsoever that involve details, facts or evidence? Notice that even though s/he pretends to have expertise, s/he skillfully skates away when asked what expertise s/he has (because s/he has none)? Notice how s/he operates on the "Killtown" method of post ****, pretend knowledge and run away to start another thread without answering any questions in the previous thread?

TroofinessSeeker is naught but a troll spouting the same tired and long debunked conspiracy theories that s/he is probably too embarrassed to even admit s/he believes her/himself. More likely, this is her/his only way of feeling as though s/he's part of "something", even if it means being part of a lunatic group of "troofers".
 
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But to drop into free fall, straingt down, requires that all the vertical supports fail at the same time, or at least that a great majority of them fail in a symmetrical pattern. An asymmetrical failure of columns, by whatever etiology, will produce either

1) part of the building remaining standing
2) the building toppling to the side, as observed in the demolition linked at the top of the thread.

I have an experiment I would like you to try, TS.

First, take a large, heavy object, such as a shipping container, and suspend it from a crane so the bottom of the container is just above head height.

Now, stand under the container, but as far away as possible from the centre.

Finally, on the count of 3, have an assistant cut/release the cable suspening the container.

Observe: Does the container tip over before crushing you to a bloody pulp, or does it fall flat?

You may need your assistant to write the report for you.
 
Check my NIST reference, page 27. Your number is off. They give a detailed sequence of 8.2 seconds from first signs to initiation of global collapse, so perhaps 15 seconds for the whole thing to come crashing down.

The demolition happened in stages. First the one penthouse,then the other. When the main roofline begins dropping, it is 6.5 seconds. See Legge, see Kutler. How much time elapsed between stages is irrelevant. They could have waited an hour after dropping the penthouse. By plotting individual times and distances all the way down, and comparing that to free-fall, Legge shows that the building went into free fall.

Please cite these, I haven't heard such claims. Not saying you're wrong, just I don't know where you got this from.


The swiss cheese and eutectics and partially evaportated steel are from the Jonathan Barnett Metallurgical study, one of the only (the only??) peer reviewed paper in the whole mess. Unless you count the Scholars for Truth in-house review.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/metallurgy/WTC_apndxC.htm

There's simply no evidence of bombs

I'm sorry. How else do you explain the windows blowing out in sequence with smoke billowing out. While the whole building is falling, the upper floors are not falling relative to one another, and the timing in between blasts of smoke coming out is way too fast. How on earth could the floors be pancaking upwards? Unlike the twin towers, this is much more of a classic controlled demolition, with a demolition sequence proceeding upwards, slicing the the vertical columns floor by floor, proceeding upwards.
 

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