Belz...
Fiend God
I don't like this way of conversation. Why that aggresive, what did I do to you ? I know enough of Newtonian mechanics.
Obviously not, since you seem to think that pieces of steel and cement weigh less once they are broken apart.
I don't like this way of conversation. Why that aggresive, what did I do to you ? I know enough of Newtonian mechanics.
Obviously not, since you seem to think that pieces of steel and cement weigh less once they are broken apart.
Einsteen:
Your english has gotten much better, very quickly. You must be using some sort of software, or you must have gotten lessons. That last post didn't have one single error in it from an english language point of view, and you even used the "British/Aussie" slang "mate".
Good going. If I could learn language as easy, I would speak fluent Chinese.
TAM
Again the word 'block' is wrong.
Well, yeah, now that you mention it...Were your skeletons secretly wrapped in C4?
Of course not mate, thats not what I said. I should not use the word 'solid' block. A lot of mass is scattered in all directions, of course the conservation of mass can't be violated, but the part traveling down together with the upperblock is not
(n+1)m_floor (Greening)
but
(wn+1)m_floor,
with w the fraction of the mass traveling downwards. Greening didn't use that, also note that w is not constant, it will be a complicated function for which we only know 0< w<1
Where else would the block go? I'm confused. Gravity will pull it downward.Upper block falls
This is assumed by TV coverage, it does not explain why this happened, ok but you have to start with something, allright then.
No, einsteen, you're wrong. The collision is inelastic. The collision can only be elastic, the alternative, if no energy is dissipated in breaking or bending things when they hit. This is impossible. Greening's asumption is correct. His mathematics allow for fragmentation.Non-elastic collision
This is not what we see from the same TV coverage, as an object breaking floors below, all the dust and crushed concrete staying 'under' the block and traveling in the same direction. If you do a gedankenexperiment in which you assume this then it's ok, but for a first approximation of the theoretical minimum collapse time you already should take other factors into account, the time could be extremely dependent on these factors or maybe not.
Because in this part of the paper he's considering timing. He addresses the energy required for progressive collapse elsewhere. Thoroughly.Tacitly assumed that the impulsive delivered by the impact is sufficient to rupture...
Why?
The timing information is derived from seismic data. It's relevant to both.[The second stage of collapse
Absolutely relevant for the seismic data, but not really relevant for the speed at which the buildings come down.
Wrong. The paper assumes resistance from structure and inertia of lower floors. It does not take wind resistance into account -- which is correct. The floors are not falling into a free-stream of air, they're falling into structure, and the structure's resistance is accounted for.For now it is sufficient to note that the collapse times calculated without allowing for E1 are already in reasonable agreement with the observed collapse times.
Of course because this is the theoretical minimum time and that should be near free-fall time because in fact section 3.0 of the paper assumes no resistance in any way, in fact point masses with non-elastic collapses merging into each other without any of the mass moving at an other directory
If you notice, the energy budget is far higher than needed. You will see a little bit of mass shed off the sides, but not much. Inelastic, remember? Stuff doesn't bounce off at full speed. You only lose a little mass on the edges, or the unlucky piece of steel that breaks and throws fragments.But the initial kinetic energy Ti is equal to (1/2)Nm_f u^2 so the fractional conversion, fc, of kinetic energy to heat is simply,
fc = Q/Ti = 1/(1 + N)
This is an amazing result IMO, but indeed under the assumption no mass is scattered away from floor N to floor N-1 to ... to floor 1
The bulk of the tower's mass is not concrete, and is not crushable. Your fudge factor W will be close to 1.If we assume 50 % of this energy was available to crush concrete, we have 1.2 x 10^9 J available for WTC 1, and 2.5 x 10^9 J available for WTC 2. This is sufficient to crush the concrete on the impacted floor to 175 micrometer particles. Consider now the newly formed mass of (14 + 1) floors of WTC 1, and (29 + 1) floors of WTC 2, impacting on the floor below.
An amazing amount of energy indeed. Again all crushed concrete is assumed to form a new mass to crush the next floor. Check some videos and detailed pictures, it's absolutely impossible to consider this as a first approximation, the mass scatters in all directions, even upwards. Of course the conservation of mass can't be violated, but the part traveling down together with the initial upperblock is not
(n+1)m_floor
but should be
(wn+1)m_floor,
with w the fraction of the mass traveling downwards. Greening didn't use that, also note that w is not constant, it will be a complicated function (dependent on some variables) for which we only know 0< w<1, it should be estimated.
Again, only the stuff that falls off the sides is in a free-stream of air. And we've already discounted it. Fine pieces still in the core structure do not experience meaningful drag.Further small particles are very sensitive to air resistance and the rest of the crap in the air and the so-called terminal speed is reached very quickly, I'm not sure if the factor w can take that into acount or if another factor is needed for that somewhere. Maybe I'm wrong also now and all these factors seem to have not much influence on the theoretical minimum, but it was just something I thought after reading a little bit.
I'm glad we agree. The 9/11 "scholar" Judy Woods used the analogy of the top of a tree falling to claim the top section of the towers would have "tipped over" rather than compressing the remainder of the building.
Of course, trees are entirely solid, with a fairly high density, thus the amount of force needed to compress a tree trunk would be absolutely enormous.
In contrast, a building is primarily air, and as such has a very low density. The amount of force required to tip it over would be enormous - I have heard it would have to tip over its centre of gravity by several hundred feet in order to topple.
I recall, from the first time I saw the collapses, I described them as "peeling open like a banana" (I have always been mystified by the "looks like a CD" claim). Additional research confirms my interpretation - the forces of collapse pancaked the floors. As they gave way the building lost rigidity (because the floor trusses made the building rigid) thus, as the upper mass crashed down on the building the exterior cladding peeled outwards like a banana skin. This left the naked, stripped core, some of which remained standing for some time before it too collapsed (since I think we can agree the core of the WTC, having suffered the collapse of the rest of the structure, was not going to remain standing).
-Andrew
Why ?
Like in cartoons...
Then put him on ignore. Or, better still, don't post in an open forum he's known to frequent.You are as irrelevant to me as your posts. I have no interest in corresponding with you.
Then put him on ignore. Or, better still, don't post in an open forum he's known to frequent.
I didn't request your intervention either.
Actually we don't agree, you have inferred something from my posts that I did not say.
The tree is not a good analogy in terms of structural soundness and response to external forces. Wood is a very different material to steel and concrete
I have no idea who Judy Wood is but she is probably saying that if you saw the top of a tree off it topples off because the underlying support is sound. I would not argue with that since the damage to the towers would be akin to cutting them off at the top.
For a small section of the top of the tower to topple wouldn't actually take much if the impact damage changed the balance of forces significantly.
It would be somewhat like trying to balance to top of a tree that has been sawn through with a wedge removed (as traditional woodsmen cut).
Additionally, your contrast isn't a contrast. All you have said is that dense materials resist compression well and lighter constructions built with high moments of area don't topple easily.
Light framework constructions are designed to transfer loads with safety factors so that they resist certain modes of failure be they buckling, bending or fracture. I think it would be odd for the designer of the building not to make a space frame that could resist the forces of its own weight several times over.
To say that the steel space frame would be poor in compression because it is less dense than wood is absurd. I pointed this out in my previous post that the tree analogy is good in principle for the layman to understand how the building works but it is very limited.
bull stuff! A structure, whether it be tree or building, topples because the center of mass has been moved outside the footprint of its suppport. This is easy on a long, slender structure, such as a radio tower, or a tree.Actually we don't agree, you have inferred something from my posts that I did not say.
I have no idea who Judy Wood is but she is probably saying that if you saw the top of a tree off it topples off because the underlying support is sound. I would not argue with that since the damage to the towers would be akin to cutting them off at the top.
For a small section of the top of the tower to topple wouldn't actually take much if the impact damage changed the balance of forces significantly. It would be somewhat like trying to balance to top of a tree that has been sawn through with a wedge removed (as traditional woodsmen cut).
water resists compression better than most solids-in fact, if you fil a cylinder of steel with water, and try to compress it with a steel piston, you wiil fail the steel, either piston or cylinderAdditionally, your contrast isn't a contrast. All you have said is that dense materials resist compression well and lighter constructions built with high moments of area don't topple easily.
Water is denser than wood (that's why wood floats) but it wouldn't resist compression as well as a comparable thickness of tree. The structure of a tree is tough and strong because it has a fibrous nature, density is not the single factor that determines strength and toughness.
you will find that the failure mode of every steel part was either bending, or buckling (which is a fancy name for bending due to compressive instability)Light framework constructions are designed to transfer loads with safety factors so that they resist certain modes of failure be they buckling, bending or fracture. I think it would be odd for the designer of the building not to make a space frame that could resist the forces of its own weight several times over. To say that the steel space frame would be poor in compression because it is less dense than wood is absurd. I pointed this out in my previous post that the tree analogy is good in principle for the layman to understand how the building works but it is very limited.
William (or is it Paul, I can't remember)
What is the point of your rudeness? So he made an off handed remark, there is no need for you to be snotty and antagonist about it, especially since you have not been on these boards nearly as long as he.
Put us all on ignore if it will make you think clearer, or make you less angry.
TAM