Free energy?

Perpetual Motion - The Sequel

Now this I like. I don't think I've ever heard it expressed so clearly before!

Thanks.

That was one of my rare moments of lucidity.

Generally I don't touch that subject anymore, but I just couldn't resist the temptation this time.

It's hard to believe that anybody in the 21st century, not living in a jungle and swinging by a tail, still believes that such devices are possible.
 
Once again we have claims of free energy. They say they want the
scientific community to have a look before they commercialize the
product. Hey, why bother with the science, if you really have a magical
device that makes energy why not just sell them. I'm sure the free
market will respond well if it really works.

see:
news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060817/sc_nm/technology_energy_dc

I can't post links yet. sorry.

Gotta impresss a few scientists with your magic tricks and hope nobody finds the hidden mechanism before you sell the thing.
 
Thanks.

That was one of my rare moments of lucidity.

Generally I don't touch that subject anymore, but I just couldn't resist the temptation this time.

It's hard to believe that anybody in the 21st century, not living in a jungle and swinging by a tail, still believes that such devices are possible.

Yeah, it does start to feel a bit like banging your head on a wall.

I think a lot of people are secretly hoping they'll develop a fundamentally new source of energy, similar to the discovery of nuclear power, and this hope keeps these things going. Most people don't realize the magnitude of effort required to advance fundamental sciences like that. They forget that the first controlled nuclear reaction took the combined efforts of hundreds of scientists and engineers, some of whom were the smartest people in the world at the time. They keep hoping some guy in his basement will pull off something just as grand, and that's just not very likely.

But a huge effort just doesn't have the same romantic image as the lone inventor, bravely pushing back the boundaries of science, so the image lives on.
 
A perpetual motion machine is like an animal that eats nothing but its own poop over and over again and lives forever, never needing any other source of food after its first meal.

This is exactly how a perpetual motion machine works and exactly why it won't work.

That doesn't work!!?! NOW you tell me....
 
I think a lot of people are secretly hoping they'll develop a fundamentally new source of energy, similar to the discovery of nuclear power, and this hope keeps these things going. Most people don't realize the magnitude of effort required to advance fundamental sciences like that. They forget that the first controlled nuclear reaction took the combined efforts of hundreds of scientists and engineers, some of whom were the smartest people in the world at the time. They keep hoping some guy in his basement will pull off something just as grand, and that's just not very likely.

But a huge effort just doesn't have the same romantic image as the lone inventor, bravely pushing back the boundaries of science, so the image lives on.
AFAIK, in the history of the world, every idea that ever was, including every scientific idea, first existed inside an individual human head.

Leo Szilard was one such individual. He invented the nuclear chain reaction -- the basis for the atom bomb -- and got a classified patent in Great Britain. Worried by what he saw as similar work in Germany he wrote the letter to Roosevelt that Einstein signed, which eventually resulted in the Manhattan Project. Yes, fission took more than his one genius to make work, but he had the idea first.

Some ideas do take billions of dollars and an army of scientists and engineers to bring to fruition. Others can be developed in small University labs like Charles Townes' maser (precursor to the laser).

Don't assume that "Bigger Is Better" in science or anything. If bigger were always better, General Motors and IBM would still be the leading companies in their respective industries.

Big Science projects develop an inertia of their own that prevents good scientists from putting significant effort into alternative paths. Is ITER the best path to fusion? Put it another way, was the Space Shuttle the best path to space? When billions are involved the path chosen "has to be right" and alternatives are de-funded, ignored, even ridiculed. This happened even in the original atom bomb program.

There is still much good fundamental science yet to be done, and most of it I think will come from the smaller laboratories.

And maybe -- just maybe -- a couple will come from accidental discoveries like the one Steorn is claiming.
 
ttch:

I your opinion, what are the three most amazing scientific breakthroughs in the last 50 years made by an individual not associated with a university (or similar institution, like the research department of a major company)?
 
ttch:

In your opinion, what are the three most amazing scientific breakthroughs in the last 50 years made by an individual not associated with a university (or similar institution, like the research department of a major company)?
Hmm... Amazing scientific breakthroughs... Not from a university or major company...

I suppose you are trying to show that I am talking through my hat. But in my reply to Horatius I wasn't saying that Joe Smoe, working in his garage, would come up with the cure for cancer (though I'm not saying that's impossible). I was contrasting Horatius' vision of "the combined efforts of hundreds of scientists and engineers, some of whom were the smartest people in the world" vs. a smaller lab, like a university or corporate lab, with maybe only one or two scientists and a like number of assistants working on any one problem. Most new tech firms start with people and IP originally from university labs.

As for the "three most amazing scientific breakthroughs," I don't know about you but for me nearly every issue of New Scientist reports on a couple of pretty amazing discoveries or inventions. Perhaps they aren't fundamental enough or amazing enough for your definition but they sure aren't all coming from efforts involving hundreds of scientific workers or billion-dollar institutions.
 
Energy from where?

Can anyone here come up with a method for generating energy involving neither fission (direct [reactors] or indirect [geothermal energy]), nor fusion (direct [reactors, someday] or indirect [solar panels, wind, waves, plants, fossil fuels, solar wind]), nor tidal forces on the earth from the moon or sun (the Bay of Fundy has a tidal power generator; the sun invokes 46% of the moon's tidal amplitude).

I have one. It isn't practical but you can see that it would work. In fact, months after I thought it up I discovered that a U.S. patent had already been issued on it.

Actually, another recent thread in this sub-forum mentions a method for tapping this same energy source in an entirely different way. No fair peeking! But my method at least requires no advances in materials science.

I'm sure one of you can come up with it. Maybe even a better one. I've given you a big hint already. I'll check back tomorrow to see and tell you my idea either way.
 
Can anyone here come up with a method for generating energy involving neither fission (direct [reactors] or indirect [geothermal energy]), nor fusion (direct [reactors, someday] or indirect [solar panels, wind, waves, plants, fossil fuels, solar wind]), nor tidal forces on the earth from the moon or sun (the Bay of Fundy has a tidal power generator; the sun invokes 46% of the moon's tidal amplitude).

(...)

I'm sure one of you can come up with it. Maybe even a better one. I've given you a big hint already. I'll check back tomorrow to see and tell you my idea either way.

Well, there's the orbital tether option, but that's hard to hook up to the commercial power grid. Not my idea, but it seems to fall outside the examples you've listed above.
 
AFAIK, in the history of the world, every idea that ever was, including every scientific idea, first existed inside an individual human head.

Leo Szilard was one such individual. He invented the nuclear chain reaction -- the basis for the atom bomb -- and got a classified patent in Great Britain. (...)

Others can be developed in small University labs like Charles Townes' maser (precursor to the laser).

But individual humans don't work in a vacuum. Could Szilard have come up with his idea if he wasn't working with other like-minded people, whose work he was familiar with? They don't all have to be in the same building, just reading published papers acts to combine the efforts of various researchers together. And in recent years this has become even more pronounced.

Don't assume that "Bigger Is Better" in science or anything. If bigger were always better, General Motors and IBM would still be the leading companies in their respective industries.

I don't think bigger is automatically better, and of course there's a point where the whole thing becomes totally unmanageable. But even so, a lot of modern physics, which is where a breakthrough like a new source of energy is likely to arise, takes lots of big machines, which simply aren't practical for individuals, or even small groups, to produce or maintain. There's probably some optimum size group for this. What size that is I don't know, but I'm pretty sure it's more than one. Just the different skill sets you need to put together a lab (even a small one) are not likely to exist in just one (or a few) people.

Remember that most University labs, where most of the "small science" gets done, are in reality supported by a network of techs and shop guys, who are shared out amongst several labs. Just because you don't need a tech guy every day, doesn't mean he's not crucial to your success.

There is still much good fundamental science yet to be done, and most of it I think will come from the smaller laboratories.

And maybe -- just maybe -- a couple will come from accidental discoveries like the one Steorn is claiming.
There's always the possibility of an upset, but that's not the way to bet.
 
Can anyone here come up with a method for generating energy involving neither fission (direct [reactors] or indirect [geothermal energy]), nor fusion (direct [reactors, someday] or indirect [solar panels, wind, waves, plants, fossil fuels, solar wind]), nor tidal forces on the earth from the moon or sun (the Bay of Fundy has a tidal power generator; the sun invokes 46% of the moon's tidal amplitude).

I have one. It isn't practical but you can see that it would work. In fact, months after I thought it up I discovered that a U.S. patent had already been issued on it.

Actually, another recent thread in this sub-forum mentions a method for tapping this same energy source in an entirely different way. No fair peeking! But my method at least requires no advances in materials science.

I'm sure one of you can come up with it. Maybe even a better one. I've given you a big hint already. I'll check back tomorrow to see and tell you my idea either way.

The cast of Evita, pedaling exercise bikes. (Actually, any Andrew Lloyd Weber would do.)
 
Well, frankly, I'd be suprised to find anything you could do to produce any meaningful power production that is not, at least indirectly, the result of the sun.

But, what the heck, if you can synthesize a small (a few Everests size, IIRC) black hole, it'll produce enough energy through Hawking radiation to run things for a while. Make sure it's electrically charged so you can manipulate it, though. You might even find one already made, if the primordial black hole theory is correct.

Not fission, fusion, or tidal energy.
 
Hmm... Amazing scientific breakthroughs... Not from a university or major company...

I suppose you are trying to show that I am talking through my hat.

...
I don't think we disagree too much. Some really neat inventions are made and developed by "amateurs". The start of the personal computer would be a good example of this. In the sciences, some advances have been made in mathematics. To do mathematics at that level you basically just need your (ridiculously smart) brain and a pen and paper. OK, these days, you need a computer and access to the internet, but an individual can get that.

HOWEVER:

Physics? Rewriting basic laws of nature? Building a device that exploits those now rewritten laws? A device that will dazzle scientists and lay people alike? Mindboggingly unlikely to be done by an amateur. I can't think of an example of this ever happening.

Let's take the last huge physics paradigm shift-type rewrites: Quantum mechanics and relativity. Let's say for the sake of the argument that a single person came up with one of those by himself. All of it, and nobody else knew about it. He is the only person on the planet with that knowledge, and it's the year 1900. What device could he build to impress the world? A gas laser, maybe? VERY impressive in 1900 (Edison would have loved it.) Any new physics discovery of that order of magnitude is likely to be much more difficult to come up with than QM or relativity, since so many people are working on it these days, and no grand unified theory is ready. The hardware to demonstrate it would also most likely be much more expensive and difficult for an individual to make.

Free energy scams on the other hand, are quite common. :)
 
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What I never quite got is why people need to claim perpetual motion, >100% efficiency.

Why not claim a sustainable and low maintainence version of the still completely incredible, yet thermodynamically feasible, 90% efficiency? 95%?, 99%? Such a device would revolutionize industry and wouldn't be so easily refutable.

In any event, a machine that comes along to demonstrate "perpetual motion" wouldn't refute thermodynamics. It'd most likely just exploit a undiscovered potential energy source that we haven't realized yet.
 
What I never quite got is why people need to claim perpetual motion, >100% efficiency.

Why not claim a sustainable and low maintainence version of the still completely incredible, yet thermodynamically feasible, 90% efficiency? 95%?, 99%? Such a device would revolutionize industry and wouldn't be so easily refutable.

In any event, a machine that comes along to demonstrate "perpetual motion" wouldn't refute thermodynamics. It'd most likely just exploit a undiscovered potential energy source that we haven't realized yet.

Ask and ye shall be answered. It's a "high efficiency mechanical transducer", that's not (we swear!) perpetual motion. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that it looks just like a classic perpetual motion device.
 
What I never quite got is why people need to claim perpetual motion, >100% efficiency.

Why not claim a sustainable and low maintainence version of the still completely incredible, yet thermodynamically feasible, 90% efficiency? 95%?, 99%? Such a device would revolutionize industry and wouldn't be so easily refutable.

In any event, a machine that comes along to demonstrate "perpetual motion" wouldn't refute thermodynamics. It'd most likely just exploit a undiscovered potential energy source that we haven't realized yet.

Lots of things have >90% efficiency, large electric motors for example. Anything less than 100% just means that conversions from one form of energy to another are less expensive. An over unity device, however, could be plugged back into itself and produce energy at no cost.
 
Energy from where?

Sorry for the delay; here's the item I promised.

This is about a system to extract energy from a source not relating either directly or indirectly to chemical forces, fission, fusion, or tidal forces from the moon or sun.

I guess I didn't make it clear that this system could be built today (well, in a few months, if you had the money). It doesn't need any cutting-edge technology, let alone any black holes! There's even a patent. But I again want to stress that it is completely impractical.

The basic invention is this. Take an exceedingly large flywheel that can be spun up to display a very large angular momentum, the larger the better. From here on we'll call this flywheel a gyroscope because we want to utilize its gyroscopic qualities, not store energy in its intrinsic momentum. We will need some additional machinery to keep it spun up against losses, so mounting it in a sealed housing in a (near) vacuum would be a good idea. I think that sealed gyroscopes and/or flywheels are currently available for sale.

The simplest version is to have the gyroscope mounted with the bearings on the ends of its axis held fast in a circular ring which is itself mounted within a circular track allowing the interior ring including the gyroscope to rotate. While the gyroscope spins on its axis, the gyroscope's axis and the ring can only rotate within the plane of the track. The outer circular track is held fast, oriented parallel to the circle of latitude upon which the device sits. The track will stand at an apparent angle relative to the ground if the device is located anywhere but the Earth's equator.

After being spun up, the gyroscope will want to retain its current orientation relative to the "fixed stars" but the Earth will be turning beneath it. So from the point of view of a ground observer the gyroscope will make one compete turn within its track about once every 24 hours. This is true at any point on the surface of the Earth. The movement is slow but the torque generated will be relative to the angular momentum of the gyroscope, which we have set up to be very large. We oppose this movement with a gearing mechanism that eventually gears up to a speed acceptable to a generator.

Maybe one of you are aware of or can think up a better way to extract energy from this torque. A set of pulleys lifting heavy weights as in a grandfather clock, etc. Just like Steorn...

You'll remember from childhood experience with your toy gyroscopes, when a gyroscope feels a force attempting to twist it (as here), it will precess (move in a direction orthogonal to the twisting force, depending upon which way the gyroscope is spinning). IIRC, the existing U.S. patent on this device (the reference to which I have misplaced -- sorry!) describes a much more complicated mechanism than I do, so I hypothesize that it attempts to recover additional energy from these movements (as unlikely as that seems to me now). Either way, we do want to prevent the gyroscope from moving into an orientation where its spin axis is parallel to the Earth's spin axis -- no energy there.

In this version we instead simply prevent any precession, nutation, etc. that would move the gyroscope out of the plane of its track. We also ignore the other movements of the Earth, its revolution about the sun, the sun's revolution about the center of the galaxy, etc., that might minimally affect the gyroscope.

To sum up, this is a device which converts a tiny fraction of the Earth's angular momentum into a torque which we can then convert into useful energy such as electricity. Assuming the system has few losses from friction (mostly in bearing pressure) we should be able to obtain enough energy from it to keep the gyroscope itself spun-up indefinitely and still have enough left over to brew our afternoon tea.

Now you may be asking yourself, "Why isn't this instead converting the gyroscope's angular momentum into torque?"

The answer is that twisting a gyroscope does not affect its angular momentum except, again, from heat losses due to stress on its bearings (perhaps magnetic bearings are the way to go). But the torque from the gyroscope, through its bearings, track and energy gearing, eventually to the Earth's surface, are applied directly against the Earth's spin movement.

To reduce the required size of the gyroscope we might instead use multiple gyroscopes with the bearings of their axes held fast in a cylinder which is mounted in a cylindrical track. The gyroscopes don't have to be parallel to each other, just have their axes in parallel planes. (Mounting multiple gyroscopes in a disk invokes more complex forces.)

Finally, when the system needs maintenance you can use the spin-up motor instead as a generator to de-spin the gyroscope/flywheel, recovering a fair fraction of its energy.

Some of you engineers might enjoy working out the formulae to make this system more concrete, or conversely, show that it can't work. How much work can you get out of it per unit of angular momentum? What is the smallest model that could demonstrate the invention? Or perhaps you could sketch out methods to accept/direct the torque for energy conversion when the gyroscope is more like in the original patent where it is allowed to move in ways other than the one plane I describe. Or do a better patent search than I did.

That's it. Questions? Observations? Besides it being rather silly.

But I think it does show that you can get energy from the strangest places. Hmm... So maybe Steorn... No. No! That way lies madness.

-----

Later: I still haven't found the patent. Several patents by Frederick H. Mishler (5,353,655; 5,150,625; 3,726,146) from keywords might relate but it turns out they are for hand-operated gyroscopes with a mechanism that utilizes precession to increase spin -- which might be handy here. I've read about these toys: You start them with a pull string as usual, then you turn them back and forth in your hand until they reach about 10,000 rpm, making them almost impossible to handle. (Also see Wikipedia for DynaBee and NSDPowerball.)

You'll note Mishler's patents mention using the resulting energy for potential audio and visual output (which they do in the toy, seen in a video ad on the web). This shows the trend towards making every possible obvious claim in a patent. A recent Federal Circuit Court of Appeals ruling, just accepted for appeal by the U.S. Supreme Court, overturned the long-held (and written in law) standard of "obviousness" to instead require a previous publicly-available description of an invention to invalidate its patent due to obviousness. This includes combining existing things in patently :) obvious ways. For info, google "patent obvious appeal".
 
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After being spun up, the gyroscope will want to retain its current orientation relative to the "fixed stars" but the Earth will be turning beneath it. So from the point of view of a ground observer the gyroscope will make one compete turn within its track about once every 24 hours. This is true at any point on the surface of the Earth. The movement is slow but the torque generated will be relative to the angular momentum of the gyroscope, which we have set up to be very large. We oppose this movement with a gearing mechanism that eventually gears up to a speed acceptable to a generator.

Uh, no.

An isolated system can no more convert its total angular momentum into some other form of energy than it can convert its total linear momentum into some other form of energy.

A planet with a gyroscope on it doesn't just slow its rotation, and permit you to get the energy out by hooking a generator to the gyroscope's precession relative to the planet. Such a free lunch would violate mechanics as we understand it.
 

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