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Has Anyone Seen A Realistice Explanation For Free Fall Of The Towers?

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Seriously, people, he will just continue to spout the same crap as he did for years on another forum without ever once acknowledging a rational post or a legitimate question. His only purpose is to spam.

And he does it incessantly.

This forum is better than to allow him to do that for another two years, isn't it?
Let me rephrase that.... this forum is good enough to let him spam as much as he wants for the next two years but better than responding to him for another two years, isn't it?
 
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If assymetry is the cause of an early fall, then why did the body of WTC 2 fall symmetrically east instead of more south than east towards the damaged corner??
Finding 32: The building section above the impact and fire area tilted to the east and south at the onset of structural collapse. The tilt occurred toward the east side with the long span floors. Estimates made from photographs indicate that there was approximately a 3 degree to 4 degree tilt to the south, and a 7 to 8 degree tilt to the east, prior to significant downward movement of the upper portion of the building.

The tilt to the south did not increase any further as the upper building section began to fall, but the tilt to the east continued reaching 20 degrees to 25 degrees before dust clouds obscured the view.
Bolding mine. http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-6ExecutiveSummary.pdf
 
Ok, let me see if I can sum this all up after skimming through this thread.

The OP states he has incontrivertible proof that supports his theories but refuses to show it, all the while insisting that the bruden of proof to prove him wrong is on our shoulders.

We cannot prove him wrong because all actual evidence we do provide in his eyes is suspect and therefore not acceptible.

Is that the gist of it all? This has been allowed to go on for 72 pages?
 
Well, not that Christophera has joined Sir Knight, Hammegk, and American on my ignore list, perhaps this thread will become entertaining. Someone let me know if he ever retracts his claim of customer 3" rebar.
 
It's quiz time again, Chris! You didn't answer the first time. Come on, stop misbehaving like you do at bath time. Answer the questions. http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1887265&postcount=2722

I was watching the Ric Burns documentary New York, and there's a scene that's shot from an elevator inside the core during construction, before the core's drywall was installed. The elevator rises past 8 floors, and all you see is columns, floors, and daylight. That INVISICRETE TM sure is something!

Chris, I've told you many times that you should see that documentary, which actually exists, rather than constantly rerunning your imaginary documentary. You would learn a lot. Why haven't you watched it?

I've always wondered how Leslie Robertson, with all his degrees and professional memberships (P.E., C.E., S.E., D.Sc., D.Eng., NAE, F.ASCE, AIJ, JSCA, AGIR), could be so dumb as to not know how his building was constructed. It's a wonder all his buildings haven't collapsed!

“A lot of people have told me, ‘You should have used more concrete in the structure,’” said Robertson. However, his chart plotting the strength of steel vs. concrete at various temperatures showed that at the incendiary levels that raged in the towers, the two materials become similarly weak.
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/2002/04/17_alum.html

The towers were believed to have been the first to rely on "shaft-wall" interior cores, made of gypsum-based wallboard instead of harder materials, masonry or reinforced concrete. The shaft-wall design was considered a breakthrough at the time, favored for its fire resistance and air-tight qualities. A question today is whether abandoning shaft-wall construction is worth the additional weight and cost.

Leslie E. Robertson, who directed the structural design of the Trade Center, said he would be "astonished" if codes are changed to require harder interior cores. The proper response, he says, "is not making buildings resistant to the airplane, but to keep the airplane from running into it." http://www.absconsulting.com/news/wsj-oct10-01.pdf

For example, in the Delaware talk, Dr. Thornton contrasted the lightly protected, wallboard-encased stairwells of the World Trade Center — which were severed by flying debris, trapping hundreds of people above — with the thick concrete walls enclosing the Petronas stairwells. In the talk, Dr. Thornton said "concrete-encased stairwells probably would have survived that and allowed people from above to get down," Dr. Chajes recalled.

He describes Mr. Robertson's design as visionary and points out that the advanced, high-strength concrete holding up all of the Petronas Towers — not just the core — had not been developed when the trade center went up in the 1960's and 1970's.

In that respect, the Petronas Towers, built in 1998, were made possible by rapid improvements in the most mundane of materials, said Franz Ulm, a professor of civil and environmental engineering at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. "In the '80's and '90's, there occurred a real revolution in concrete materials that is almost not known to the public," he said.

He said that high-strength concrete generally resisted both blasts and fires better than steel like that in the trade center, where the plane impacts probably knocked loose a lightweight form of fireproofing that had been sprayed onto columns and beams, which then buckled in the heat.

Advocates for steel construction, which has long battled concrete in the marketplace, dispute the claim that there is any real difference in properly constructed buildings that use either of the materials — especially since even the high-strength concrete is reinforced with embedded steel bars. "There's this perception that just because we wrap something in concrete, that it's protected from the fire," said Charlie Carter, chief structural engineer for the American Institute of Steel Construction in Chicago. "That's not true."

For a combination of historical, cultural and economic reasons, tall, concrete-core buildings dedicated to office use are unusual in New York, where builders prefer the wallboard-enclosed cores with steel frames that Mr. Robertson pioneered in the trade center.

But Patricia J. Lancaster, an architect who is the city's building commissioner, said that despite the possibility of higher costs, the city should look at revising its building codes. "Certainly, the hardening of core areas including elevator shafts and stairway enclosures is something that needs to be looked at," she said. "Comparing 2 Sets of Twin Towers" by James Glanz. New York Times, October 23, 2002

The gypsum panels were used to form fire-resistant enclosures around steel core columns, stairwells, mechanical shafts, and the core area in the towers. The core column fireproofing varied according to the column location and exposure to occupied spaces. The primary function of the core columns was to carry the building gravity loads. The exterior columns
resisted wind loads and, in addition, carried approximately half of the gravity loads.

Preliminary analysis of the core and exterior columns considered their individual buckling behavior and how it varied for uniform elevated temperatures. The columns were found to have sufficient capacity for
tower gravity loads, even under elevated temperatures and a loss of lateral support at several floors. This was also found in more detailed finite element models of the columns.

The core columns were studied to determine the most efficient way to reduce the complexity of the model while still capturing buckling behavior at room and elevated temperatures. Four classifications of core column structural damage were established: severed, heavy damage, moderate damage, and light damage. Classification criteria included plastic strain levels and lateral deformation from the column centerline. Columns that were severed or heavily damaged were removed to simulate impact damage in the global analysis of each tower. Two types of floor structural damage were identifiedfrom the impact analysis results: (1) missing floor areas and (2) severely damaged floor areas incapable of supporting loads.

Fireproofing was assumed to be dislodged from core columns only if the columns were subject to direct debris impact that failed wall partitions in the immediate vicinity of the column1.

Case D predicted more damage to core columns than Case C, but the extent of the fireproofing damage was similar, as shown in Fig. E–4.

Thermal Weakening of the Core:
• The undamaged core columns developed high plastic and creep strains over building stood, since both temperatures and stresses were high in the core and creep strains exceeded thermal expansion in the core columns.
• The shortening of the core columns (due to plasticity and creep) was resisted truss which unloaded the core over time and redistributed loads to exterior
• As a result of the thermal weakening (and subsequent to impact and prior of the south wall), the north and south walls each carried about 10 percent loads, and the east and west walls each carried about 25 percent more loads. Core columns carried about 20 percent less gravity loads after thermal weakening. http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-6ExecutiveSummary.pdf

Photos: http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/Gayle-Proj3 Mech Props NCST Final.pdf

NARRATOR: To support most of the downward weight of the building Robertson created a separate inner core made of steel girders. The core also housed the lifts and emergency stairwells, but neither the outer skeleton nor the inner core could stand alone, so Robertson used steel floor trusses to knit the whole thing together.

LESLIE ROBERTSON: The World Trade Center is a very large project. In essence it still boils down to a series of small pieces and this is an example of a top part assembly of a typical floor truss.

NARRATOR: The floor trusses had a vital structural role. They held the towers firm bracing the outer skeleton against the inner core. Without the trusses the towers could not stand. Their performance is now at the heart of the investigation into what happened. Another area of innovation was in fire protection. To save weight the trusses were coated not in concrete but in the latest, lightweight, heat-resistant foam and instead of protecting the inner core with concrete the architects used both the spray and a lightweight fire resistant plasterboard called drywall. Drywall is very effective at keeping out fire, but it has one problem: it's not very strong.

BRIAN CLARK: Drywall had been blown off the wall and was lying on, you know propped up against the railing here and, and we had to move it, shovel it aside. http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2001/worldtradecentertrans.shtml

Most of the load was supported by several fourteen-inch columns, forty inches on center, surrounding the building; giving it the appearance of a pinstriped suit.* The only other main structural component was the core of steel columns that supported the elevator shafts and stairwells in the center of the building.

The columns in the core were substantial and capable of bearing huge gravity loads.* However, they depended on the floor truss system to provide lateral support.* As the flooring system was destroyed by fire, greater lengths of core columns were exposed, which were already overloaded because of the destruction of the exterior columns.* Taking away the lateral support of the flooring system caused the core columns to have a larger effective length factor (K), and the columns buckled, causing the floors to crash straight down on one another.* The figure above shows that with a larger K-value, the allowable load on a column is significantly less.

The core structure consisted of steel beams with this spray on fire protection material.* It is suspected that the material was stripped off the steel, directly exposing the columns to the intense fire.*

From "A Secure Skyline: A comprehensive analysis of the World Trade Center collapse and recommendations for revisions to current fire resistance building codes"*http://wps.ablongman.com/wps/media/objects/697/714416/ModelsTemplates/ReportTemplate.doc&e=9797

NARRATOR: In Robertson's design, the downward weight of the building was also supported by large steel columns around the building's inner core, which is where he placed elevator shafts, emergency stairs and other building services. But the tall vertical columns of the inner core and outer walls were like freestanding stilts until Robertson tied them together with floor trusses.

MATTHYS LEVY: The core in concrete might have actually stood for a much longer period of time, allowing many, many more occupants to leave the building. It would certainly have allowed the occupants on the upper floors to have a safe passage through at least one of the vertical stairwells. The core in concrete might have actually stood through the fire and survived.

NARRATOR: Long and thin, these horizontal steel assemblies were connected by bolts to the columns at each end and then welded to the exterior columns for extra support. The trusses were critical for holding the buildings together, and their performance is now at the heart of the investigation into what happened.

Robertson tried to save weight and costs wherever he could. He fireproofed all steel members, including the trusses, with the latest lightweight heat-resistant foam. And he kept the core area light by walling it off with drywall or Sheetrock(TM) rather than concrete.

JONATHAN BARNETT (Professor, Fire Protection Engineering): This is very typical. We often build buildings this way, two layers of Sheetrock on either side of a steel framework. It's just like you might build a wall, except we use special Sheetrock that's particularly fire-resistant.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2907_wtc.html

Mr. Robertson's groundbreaking structural designs that have influenced the design and construction of tall buildings include: ...The creation of the shaftwall system now almost universally used for fire-resistive walls in high-rise buildings. http://www.tc.umn.edu/~eeriumn/leslie.htm

The swaying of the cables in the elevator shafts has been known to dislodge the fire protection from the columns in the cores of these buildings... The Twin Towers would be perforated steel boxes surrounding a hollow steel core.
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/011119fa_FACT

The buildings were architecturally interesting in many ways. Each structure is based on a central steel core, which is surrounded by the outside wall, a 209-foot by 209-foot cube of 18-inch tubular steel columns, set 22 inches apart. The cores and "tube walls" share the enormous physical weight of the structures and protect them against the extraordinary wind forces of buildings that tall. There are trusses that support each floor, but no other columns between the cores and outside walls. http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/11/collapse_background/index.html

One of the major issues of concern during the design was that this building did not include the masonry infill that had been included in the skyscrapers of the past.* Although thought on paper not to contribute much to the overall stiffness of a building, comparative analysis of the as-built stiffness of this and other skeletal buildings was substantially less than the masonry-infill predecessors. http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/WTC/LERPresentation.htm

While the exterior provided protection against the winds, the interior served as the main support for the building. The internal columns formed a core that took care of the weight. Second, Yamasaki had to make sure the air pressure generated by the express elevators would not buckle the elevator shafts. The engineers of Otis Elevators came up with a solution to this problem. By using a drywall system fixed to the reinforced steel core, the shafts were strengthened enough that air pressure was not an issue.
http://www.unc.edu/courses/2001fall/plan/006e/001/engineering/index.html
 
I guess this explains your perceptional problem as you do not actually do anything requiring a test of rights and freedoms, or reason and evidence and so assume everyone sees things the same as you do without reasoning or evidence.

Answer the question chris: where did your freedoms go ? I, for one, didn't notice any change, except higher security at airports.

Oh, and I'm Canadian, by the way. Just so you don't put your foot in your mouth again.
 
Since we cannot see when the building is actually destroyed to the ground (no collapse involved) the issue of rate of fall is moot. The towers fell way too fast.

Based on what ?

How lame, attempting to equate time to load. If there were 5 years difference in the falls, maybe.

They were hit minutes apart from one another, and fell minutes apart from one another. I don't see where the problem is. WTC 2 was hit lower and the impact damaged the structure more than WTC 1's impact. How is that surprising ?
 
If assymetry is the cause of an early fall, then why did the body of WTC 2 fall symmetrically east instead of more south than east towards the damaged corner??

This argument reminds me of Killtown.

You DO know that the solution isn't as simple as a grade-school math problem, right ?

Too bad you can't explain why none of the 47 supposed steel core columns are never seen when they should be.

You expected to see 47 steel columns on THAT picture ?
 
Christophera:

You seem to be missing the point. The building had a steel core. It's obvious to those who aren't trying to obfuscate. I mean, you can tell by the extermination records, and the pictures of porcupines. If the fleeble fell out of the breadbox, then the cat must be gray. There's no truck in the refridgerator. All the king's horses went to La-La land, and the puppy peed on the carpet.

I mean, it's obvious.

[Hey, logic hasn't worked...]
 
The OP states he has incontrivertible proof that supports his theories but refuses to show it, all the while insisting that the bruden of proof to prove him wrong is on our shoulders.

We cannot prove him wrong because all actual evidence we do provide in his eyes is suspect and therefore not acceptible.

Is that the gist of it all? This has been allowed to go on for 72 pages?

Actually he posts his "incontrovertible proof" incessantly. The proof (according to him) is pictures taken from miles away of the collapse. His pictures are usually:

  • pictures of dust that he can tell is concrete and is way more than concrete from floors could produce. Don't ask for his calculations that prove the volume of the cloud could only be produced by a concrete core. And don't ask for the spectroscopy results of the cloud that prove it's only made up of concrete.
  • Pictures of "pulverized concrete". his proof of CD charges is the supposedly complete pulverization of the concrete in the core and his proof of pulverized concrete is pictures of the cleanup with gravel on the ground. He fails to realize a) he can't see what's under the gravel so bigger chunks of concrete flooring might be down there, b) they probably brought in gravel to help stabilize the area machinery would be driving so his pictures may very well be gravel that was brought in.
  • pictures of more dust with a blob added in. Proof of the concrete core still standing after collapse is a picture of dust with a shadowy blob. Again no spectroscopy or analysis of what the blob is, just claims it can only be a concrete core. Of course a steel core would produce exactly the same photo because of the dust obscuring the whole.
  • pictures of 3" rebar on 4' centers. pictures of a supposed spire of rebar taken from miles away. Despite the fact that 3" anything is a heck of a lot smaller than what is in the photos, complete lack of explanation of why explosives packed around the rebar wouldn't also take out the rebar, complete lack of understanding that rebar is laid vertically and horizontally and the photo only shows verticles, this is still incontrovertible proof.
 
Christophera:

You seem to be missing the point. The building had a steel core. It's obvious to those who aren't trying to obfuscate. I mean, you can tell by the extermination records, and the pictures of porcupines. If the fleeble fell out of the breadbox, then the cat must be gray. There's no truck in the refridgerator. All the king's horses went to La-La land, and the puppy peed on the carpet.

I mean, it's obvious.
Not to mention, the hallways crumbled.
 
Those aren't hallways. If they were you'd be able to see through them. From all angles. What you have there are two pieces of 208-foot rebar on 320-foot centers. That's a custom fabrication, unlike the 48-inch rebar on 15-foot centers that Christophera keeps pointing out to us.

879044f9a5254a103.jpg
 
Those aren't hallways. If they were you'd be able to see through them. From all angles. What you have there are two pieces of 208-foot rebar on 320-foot centers. That's a custom fabrication, unlike the 48-inch rebar on 15-foot centers that Christophera keeps pointing out to us.

879044f9a5254a103.jpg

Congratulations,

You have found the only piece of evidence that MIGHT be misinterpreted to support that the WTC towers had steel core columns.

You post is intentionally confusing and idiotic providing uneeded ridicule showing that you yourself do not really believe the image you post shows the "supposed steel core columns".

The 2 columns toppeling have a base pivot point that can be projected downward at an angle to the lower left to show they are a part of the row of interior box columns on the left that have separated and are falling inward. What you confusingly refer to as hallways are simply rectangular spaces formed by the interior box columns and floor beams on the panel of columns we see that were the inner wall of the outer tube of the "Tube in a tube" construction.

If those columns were inside the core area, at that height, caught falling at that angle, they would be much further to the right and we would see more of them approximately parallel as they topple. With 47 , 1300 foot steel columns toppling in whatever directions, they would be a prominent feature in the images of the towers coming down. As it is this, is the only image that can me even misinterpreted to show "core columns" from the demolition.

Niice try Gravy.
 
Are you serious? This is about the fifth time that image has been posted in this thread and this is the first time you've seen it?
It is what you have previously referred to as 3" rebar on 4'centres.
 
Christophera said:
Since we cannot see when the building is actually destroyed to the ground (no collapse involved) the issue of rate of fall is moot. The towers fell way too fast.

Based on what ?

Based on real collapses of steel and concrete structures. Which, by the way, never collapse all the way to the ground. The conservation of energy has them slowing, then deflecting.

Christophera said:
How lame, attempting to equate time to load. If there were 5 years difference in the falls, maybe.

They were hit minutes apart from one another, and fell minutes apart from one another. I don't see where the problem is. WTC 2 was hit lower and the impact damaged the structure more than WTC 1's impact. How is that surprising ?

It is convienent to say that WTC 2 was damaged more but it is well known that the right engine went entirely through the building and most of the fuel did too. If the damage was worse then it would be because the core corner was taken out which would mean that the tower would fall to the south east, or more south as the perimeter wall was damaged on the south side.

Your argument is self defeatng.
 
Christophera said:
If assymetry is the cause of an early fall, then why did the body of WTC 2 fall symmetrically east instead of more south than east towards the damaged corner??

This argument reminds me of Killtown.

You DO know that the solution isn't as simple as a grade-school math problem, right ?

Yea, tell me about it. We need an explanation of why the top of WTC 1 fell south when it was hit on the north side. the school kids will lose all confidence in science if you try to explain with your logic.

Christophera said:
Too bad you can't explain why none of the 47 supposed steel core columns are never seen when they should be.

You expected to see 47 steel columns on THAT picture ?

I only expected to see the 47 1300 foot steel columns if they existed, which they did not.

I expect you to be able to come up with images of some of the 47, 1300 foot columns clearly in the core area doing something. 72 pages and not one image that clearly shows this. Pretty bad,

However I think you might find some okay baking recipes posted by the more desperate, less creative obfuscators earlier in the thread.
 
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